So, Maryland. Is there anywhere in Maryland that could become its own nation? I know about Delmarva and, obviously Central Maryland would be full of radiation. But would there be a place where radiation was low enough to be inhabitable? Even for just a city-state or something?
Unfortunately, the only two areas that were left without excessive radiation were the Delmarva Peninsula in the east, and parts of the three most northwestern counties. The problem there, for you at least, is that the former is part of Delmarva and the latter is part of Virginia.
Me and Feg had plans for a gypsy state in the UK which we never got round to making. If you want, I might be able to work with you to create it here. Here is a picture of where we planned to situate it.
The thing is, a 1983: Doomsday II wouldn't make sense. We have to keep in mind that this is a timeline like any other, not a Map Game. We can't just restart it or make a new one. This is held to a higher standard than map games as well, we can't just make any nation as we please.
Towards the west, a bit. There's an area roughly centered between Auvergne, Monaco, and Andorra that something small could conceivably exist, I think, in the northern parts of the French region of Languedoc-Roussillon, in/around the department of Lozère. The geography of that area would support such a proposal, though it would need to be small in order to not conflict with what we know about the other states around it.
Has anyone seen the movie BBC movie "Threads?" Starting with a nuclear conflict in around the year 1984 (when the movie was made,) it traces what would happen during the next 13 years in Britain (staring off in the city of Sheffield.)
No, it wasn't nuked. I'd guess that you mean one of the maps on the France page, which are mildly misleading. They're meant to show some sort of indication of how well the various French states control their territory and areas with contamination. Problem is, neither of those is at all accurate. The area I supplied should be free, more or less, of fallout and refugees. don't worry about the maps much.
Yes, anon, we're well aware of that movie. More accurate than most media of that nature, though still with problems.
I propose (in the environment of this Alternative History) that the LoN makes a series of expeditions in the zones affected by the atomic bombs, in order to get knowledge of these zones in the current times (and see which bombed cities are now able to reconstruction and repopulation).
The IRM is very clearly labeled on maps of Morocco that are on articles in that area. South Slavia is what Macedonia was supposed to evolve into following the end of Serbia. Author kind of dropped off the face of the earth after that war ended, really. Going to put it back to "Macedonia" on the next map version.
We've been over this before, Hall. Going to be decades before the radiation falls enough for that.
Most of those zones have been looked over by plane by now.
Shackleton was an explorer of great renown, imo, and that was in an era where the idea had a lot of "romantic" enthusiasm. Even more importantly, such things had been done and were known to be quite survivable. Exploring the blast zones? Not even remotely any of this.
I have a question: in the environment of this Alternative History, how is the current situation for the international media broadcasting (specially sattelite comunications and shortwave international radio) and the international air transportation? Thanks in advance.
Pretty much all satellites from before DD are either burned out of orbit, or non-functional. A small number have been launched in the last few years by Siberia, the SAC, and the ANZC, but that's it. Despite being similar construction to pre-DD sats, these ones will probably not last as long due to orbital conditions, too.
Shortwave radio, quite limited. With the Sats down, the hurts their range, as does the lack of repeaters on the ground - the repeaters in place prior to DD are in many ways useless right now, between damage and a lack of maintenance. The repeaters, though are being rebuilt/repaired, and in some areas would be operational for long distances, most notably in the NAU and Siberia. Past that, you'd have higher-range transmitters and receivers in some of the better off areas of the world (i.e. ANZC and SAC, and able to bounce off the atmosphere somewhat) able to be used as well, but not really on a commercial level. There would still be a small amount of atmospheric interference up there with regards to "bouncing" like this, too.
International Air Travel exists, though toned down from otl. Regular flights would exist between the countries that are better off, though the ones doing worse (and the smaller states, overall, too) would not have this.
Western Europe... There's several states without any articles on them, but given what is known about them, only one would meet your specifications outright, and another may be close. The Consell(Council) of Olot (near Andorra) would work well, and the Earldom of Bragança in northeastern Portugal might work to some degree too.
About the only other thing I can think of in that area is that a very small state based in the French city of Agen might be possible. not as good as Olot, though.
Only things I can think of in the Midwest would be violent, at best.
Sealand was "founded" in 1967. Been discussed before, actually. Basically, given the state of it today otl, and that supplies, fuel, etc., have to be shipped in, it would be uninhabitable, and the residents fled - consensus was they would probably leave for Woodbridge within a year of DD. The descendants of the owner would still hold formal title to it today.
Exile on a ship? Are you ****ting me? IF bates survived, he would be in Woodbridge. Even the Wikipedia article says it was a publicity stunt. The talk page or the article, I don't recall, but still. In a nuclear apocalypse, Bates would be in Woodbridge. Undeniably
Well, for one the Yunnan will need to be upgraded because me and Yank had expanded on the page. Turns out he only wrote up to 2002 and so we got the chance to add more things into the page. Not complete yet, though. I got a lot of things on my list so that is a problem.
I got the Scavengers Alliances, under the control of Osama bin Laden. They control western US coast, southern China, save the nation's already there, and are settling eastern Europe and parts of Spain, ( not the country) each area is ruled by a different chieftain, with Osama bin Laden in over all control.
Ninja, there really isn't anywhere in China for anything substantial. The space that seems to be one there really isn't there - either they are heavily raided, would have been conquered, or have been very extensively fought over.
About the only idea I have for you at this point is an article on something in easternmost Inner Mongolia. Would really not be that much of a state, though.
Master, that area is more or less a write-off. Between refugees from those two cities, and fallout from them, Parris Island, and Savannah, you also have a nuclear strike on Myrtle Beach and the effects of that. We also know that early explorers along the coast a few years after DD found nothing worth mentioning.
There was also a state set up in Florence and Georgetown in the couple years after DD - completely fell apart by the end of 1989, and ended horribly. So that area is a bit of a write-off.
We have records of survivor communities in NE North Carolina, which you can find info on in the article on that state. Those could be written on. Very small, though. The small city of Whiteville, in southern North Carolina, could play host to something small as well.
Georgetown is on record as having survived in some form as well, though the extent of that would be small.
Spartian, you are completely and wholly out to lunch. There is not a single plausible word in that. And, as an fyi, Bid Laden is in Saudi Arabia after having survived DD in Pakistan, and really not a terrorist atl. More of a businessman, really.
Ames would have been devastated by fires and refugees.
Cedar Falls-Waterloo was the center of a short-lived provisional government. Raiders and Gangs took that one out within a year or so. Some sort of state officials set this one up after fleeing the capital. Another such thing of a similar nature happened in Dubuque, with internal gangs before its takeover by the Quad Cities Alliance in 1998.
The area you're talking about - west of Cedar Rapids and northeast of Des Moines - is basically gang territory.
If memory serves, there has been talk of small entities existing in Fort Dodge and Mason City. I believe that something in Ottumwa may work, myself. Fort Dodge, given the groups that took out Waterloo, would really not be workable. Mason City may be good, though.
And, as an fyi, the westernmost parts of the state, near the river, are under the authority of Lincoln for the most part, with the northwest corner under the new USA.
Ottumwa would be better. Farther away from the central Iowa group.
No, neither one nuked - nothing there to hit. No known short-term governments there, but that means little. Don't belong to other nations, though I would imagine that Ottumwa would be being courted by the Quad Alliance to join it.
Simply put, Spartian, not only is that not realistic, it also runs directly counter to 'everything we already have. There is not one part of that which could actually happen. Myself and others have told you this several times now, even.
Was doing a little research here on the pages and the timeline, and I think I found an interesting "glitch" area that might be worth investigating. Here's the scoop:
Looking over the list of "nuked" locations in Florida, there appears to be no nuclear missiles that hit either Eglin AFB/Hulbert Field in Fort Walton Beach, nor the Penascola Naval Air Station in Pensacola. Now, Hurlburt Field was where the Special Operations Forces HQ was, Eglin was the Research and Development Command, and Pensacola NAS was the training school for naval pilots.
So the question is, was Pensacola and Fort Walton Beach nuked as Panama City and Tallahassee was, or did they somehow escape (malfuctioning warhead?) and could be a point where the US Military might still have functional facilities?
That reminds me, LG, what about a small state in Yoshkar-Ola or Syktykvar or their whereabouts?
Also, fun fact I plan on exploiting on a while; German singer Nena released her song 99 Luftballons in 1983. The song deals about a misinterpretation leading to a nuclear war. She was at Berlin at the time of Doomsday, so if she survives, I think that's a massive "told you so" to the rest of the world.
We can safely assume that both of those sites in Florida were nuked. As the strike list says at the top, it is not complete and you need to use your judgement about other targets. Those two are very obvious ones.
Fed, those areas are more or less under Siberia already. There's a small number of potential sites I left Guns on the DD talk page, those could be useful for something tiny.
Shadow, go ahead and try the Napa article.
Channel Islands in California are split between nuked and Chumash. Ones in Europe are part of the Celtic Alliance.
San Diego was plastered. Nothing at all there.
That nation in California was more or less in other states - hence why it did not work.
Do note that not everything in grey is free; actually I'd say almost everything in North America but really small city-states is taken. There's irradiated, depopulated and lawless areas all around, you can't randomly make the Imperial Empire of New York State or whatever.
So, just looking at that map... Is it just me, or are Lithuania and Courland in the opposite spots. Courland is one of the regions of Latvia (which is north of Lithuania), and on the map it is South of Lithuania.
So unless the Lithuanian remnant set up in Latvia and a Latvian remnant set up in Lithuania, I think that ought to be fixed.
Also, what is the small-ish "NLO" in light blue in OTL Latvia, between Latgalia and Estonia?
"Chalk it up"? Sorry, LG, I do not know what you mean by that. I have no experience with how the DD map gets updated, so maybe if you were to let someone with more qualifications do it, I would appreciate it.
I merely wanted it to be called to your attention.
Okay, checking the cities page, Mumbai is the largest city in the world, followed by Karachi, Sao Paulo and Mexico City. However, the largest cities in Europe are Berlin, Stockholm and Dublin, in that order.
Yes, Superior did "start" in Michigan, and both most of its population and territory are from that former stated. The two are, in most ways, one and the same.
Lansing, no way. That area has been virtually depopulated, as well as refugees and some radiation, with the region going over to bandits, gangs, and clans. As for the governor and state government, they fled the capital at some point, and were never heard from again. Died out there somewhere. Today, Lansing is on the edge of Toledo-controlled land.
And before you ask, there is no chance of the former state government being out there somewhere, or another state existing in Michigan. Whole thing has been explored pretty thoroughly. Going theory I have for the ex-government, fyi, is that they froze to death somewhere out there. By now, you'd never find the bodies.
As for the concept of it joining the new USA, even if there was support - there is not - it's not possible. There is a ton of distance between the two, and a few nations.
In nuked countries, the largest city to survive was Berlin. Would have been something in Japan, probably, but... what happened there right after DD kind of killed that idea. In the overall world, somewhere in India, Mexico, or Brazil.
Not sure what the point there would be, Bfo. Would be no different than the 2010 data already up on the cities article.
Map is not outdated, Spartian. You just need to bother to look at it, and then check local articles. Maps cannot say everything.
"Chalk it up" means what you can basically blame it on. If you look at the image history, you'd note that the last two images uploaded are identical. Should not be the case, and a quick look at my files shows that it is not.
There is a problem with wikia images from time to time where uploading a new version of an image, the new one simply doesn't change the image. This is a classic case.
As for your "qualifications" remark, that's just insulting.
Spartian, that you keep trying to propose nations in obvious nuked areas, where ones are already (and clearly marked on the map at that), or ones that are nonsensical in general, is solely your own fault. Got nothing to do with anything being "outdated."
Washington DC and its environs were plastered on DD. Nothing left by it. Anything habitable and/or non-radiated by this point - which has been a change from after-DD, when nothing was - is under Virginia or Delmarva.
"Spartian, that you keep trying to propose nations in obvious nuked areas, where ones are already (and clearly marked on the map at that), or ones that are nonsensical in general, is solely your own fault. Got nothing to do with anything being "outdated."
Washington DC and its environs were plastered on DD. Nothing left by it. Anything habitable and/or non-radiated by this point - which has been a change from after-DD, when nothing was - is under Virginia or Delmarva." -LG, literally two posts above you.
Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but what about Worchester MA.I can see a large green state in New England, but I can't really tell if it has absorbed Worchester. Im assuming it wasn't nuked either, because Boston is really the only major city in MA.
Boston, imo, is not the only major city in Mass. Springfield in the west is, at minimum, as well. Worcester would normally qualify too, but it is definitely ranked third.
Springfield, Boston, and the bases on the tip of Cape Cod were hit, as of yet. Looking through, I can see a couple more targets in the east that would have been hit, in addition to a second blast in the Boston Metro.
But, overall, I see no reason for Worcester to have been hit. Heck, I've been working on the guess that it was not.
Would Morehead City in NC be abandoned/run by another nation/otherwise unsuitable for a city-state? (Man, if I heard of this page before I started my first DD article).
Also, what about Kansas between the US-held west and the nuked east? On the Kansas page, it does not state which cities were nuked, though I can assume Kansas City, Wichita, and Topeka were nuked, along with the usual smattering of military bases.
What is left from fires would be under the Outer Lands.
The strike on Cherry Point would have set the nearby national forest on fire, and that would have spread to Morehead and burned it down.
That is more or less the strikes in Kansas. Add McConnell Air Force Base, the Kansas Army Ammunition Plant, and Fort Riley. Leavenworth probably would not have been hit, considering that none of the other academies were, though I cannot see that area going well.
There has been talk on and off on talk pages about a few settlements in southeastern portions of the state surviving, but they would be very limited in size, and somewhat isolated - the Plant is off that way. Independence would be the most likely location for something if anything was there still.
While studying an old tour date list for the band Black Sabbath, I happened to come across that they were in Geneva on the 25th of September. However, two days later, they were in Neunkirchen am Brand, a small town to the north of Nuremberg by about ten miles, almost certainly dead if they were there at the time. I am wondering if they possibly could've been in Geneva at the time. We'd probably have to use guesswork, as I seriously doubt there are records of where they were on the 26th.
Also, I was reading up on the Kansas-Missouri-Oklahoma border region in Doomsday, when I stumbled upon the Joplin and Springfield, Missouri articles. I noticed that Joplin was out of date, with the recent tornado and such. Would you mind if I updated the Joplin article, seeing as logically the nearby city of Pittsburg would join it.
Considering that the events of Doomsday started at around 1:40am on the 26th in Switzerland, I doubt that they would have even left the concert venue by the time it started. No way they got to Germany.
So, alive. Surprising.
Joplin, imo, is also a smidgen inaccurate anyway. Far as I'm concerned, you can add to it, but... you really should follow the rules about it.
Yeah, Portland Maine was hit. Really, at this point, Maine is pretty much done. What is left has been pretty well explored by now.
That gray area east of Sampi is more or less uninhabited even in otl, and what people do live there have to be supplied from outside. About the only thing of importance is a Boomer supply base, and that would have been hit.
So, that's basically a no.
What is left of Kirovsk after DD and the events thereafter, would be under Sampi.
Scarlet, you're welcome to make bands. As for a country, give me a general location you're interested in. Same goes to you, anon.
A lot of New Jersey was rendered uninhabitable by Doomsday and the refugees that followed. Tons of strikes around NYC, several more throughout the north and central parts of the state, and large amounts of fallout from Philly. In addition, these areas were more or less cut off from the southern parts of the state by blast zones. About the same concept applies to the western borders of the former state.
All that is really left is the south, centered in Atlantic City, which is part of Delmarva.
Most of the Carolina border region got wiped out by violence and hurricanes, if not DD itself. Only area left near it is the town of Georgetown, home of a small survivor state. You could do something there, though there is some canon about it already.
Amsterdam was indeed hit, as was Rotterdam and several military bases. Add fallout from Belgium.
Even worse for that area, however, is that the dams and levees, at least in part, failed. The former Netherlands today is largely water. Parts of the northeast survived, forming Friesland and what is now part of North Germany, and portion in the south, now under Luxembourg. Rest is a write-off.
That area is so bad that it is labeled on the world map in red, along with the Marianas.
pardon my ignorance but whatever happenedto Kaliningrad? ( i refer to it as konisberg due to personal preference, but hey its kaliningrad so) not interested in starting a page on dd but im interesting in knowing what happened to the city.
i just double checked the targets map. rotterdam was a bit bad off, but northern germany, belguim, luxembourg, and amsterdam werent that badly hit. i think the fallout from the sorrounding area would have dissipated after 30 years.
That area is on the borders of a couple of states, and, really is barely inhabited at all. Not impossible for survivors in the towns of Fort Scott or Nevada, but a state is probably too much.
The nuclear targets map can be safely ignored - I don't think it has ever been accurate. Dozens of strikes not on it by this point, and probably more than that.
They were hit much worse than you think.
At least eight strikes in the Netherlands, anon. Most of the country is now either an arm of the North Sea, or a lake, depending. What the strikes, fires, and radiation did not accomplish, the floods did. That's why only the three areas have survivors.
As for the concept of resettlement, only the Netherlands Antilles - which claims the region, to one degree or another - has even talked about trying to settle what remains that is not still irradiated, and accessible, though Luxembourg is slowly expanding north into the southern areas. The areas that the NA could conceivably settle are basically just the coastal islands, and islands that would appear after the flooding to their south.
Toby, you would need to adopt it like any other article.
Scarlet, that would be a great way for you to learn the ropes.
Oct, about the only good place is the town of Spencer, in NW Iowa. The areas of Minnesota that are empty got massive amounts of radiation from silo strikes, hence the emptiness. Northeastern Iowa is either under other states, or the site of failed states, depending on the location.
Everyone and their pet monkey knew about Area 51, even then. Soviets would have known more than average. Unquestionably hit.
Almaty would have been hit. Remember the big note on top of the DD page.
The Garabogazkol is more or less just desert, without people. There's a reason why there is only the one real settlement in that area, and it's on the Caspian, with its existence dependent on local sulfate mines. Only going to be nomads here now.
The USSR, atl, has reformed itself. Not going to "fall." At this point, worst you could call it is a moderate one-party state.
Not outright impossible for something in Gorno-Badakhshan.
Ok, so now that the Black Sabbath page is getting closer to completion, I have begun to look to another music-type page to start to think about. Following the trend with the heavy metal genre, I was looking at Iron Maiden.
In Sept. of 1983, they were on their World Piece Tour (remarkably with all main members: Dickinson, Harris, Murray, Smith, and McBrain) and there two closest tour dates were Sept. 20 (Edmonton, AB, Canada) and Sept. 29 (Peoria, IL, USA). They spent 9 days travelling between sites, which were a bit over 3,000 km apart.
On the third day, about 600 km had to have been travelled, putting them in undestroyed Saskatoon, SK, Canada.
So, if it not contested, I will start making a page for Iron Maiden. What do you all think?
Iron Maiden would have flown between the two cities. Literally no reason or logic for them to have driven. If anywhere, they'd have been in Peoria. Can't predict, however, overall. Assume dead.
Rex, you are incorrect about Arizona. Don't know how many bloody times I have to repeat myself to people about this one.
Much of what you know as "Arizona" is only habitable because of electricity and modern utilities. With regards to growing crops, it is wholly and utterly dependent on irrigation, and fertilizer - both of which are gone. Only a few areas are not like that, and the Colorado River valley sure as heck isn't one of them.
Water for the towns, past that, comes from underground aquifers - by and large, you can't get these without power.
Those towns died off, and fairly fast at that. Only survivors were those that fled south.
Yes, Bfo, they would have taken some. Call that a weak point of my map.
Still, there are some regions which you did not make mention of. Too many people think of AZ as entirely desert, but this could not not be further from the truth. I live here, and have been to all of the cities I have listed and feel that at a minimum Globe/Miami, Williams, Winslow/Holbrook, and Show Low/Pinetop would've been able to survive.
Also, I doubt that Scottsdale would've been hit by a nuclear missile. In 1980, the city had under 90,000 inhabitants, far from the largest city (compared to over 220,000 today!) in the state. Although, I do not know the Soviet nuclear plans, I feel that Mesa or another suburb would've been hit.
In 1980: Mesa (150,000), Glendale (100,000)
And Bfox said that he thinks Iron Maiden would've used a tour bus, but if you are sure on this one, I will respect your judgement.
I had a question, is the Iran article adoptable? I messaged the person who created the page. And I haven't gotten a response (note that the user hasn't posted in years) from the user back. Does this need to be a TSPTF vote on this when the week is up? And if a i'm making a complete fool of myself asking for this page, message me so I'll now that the page isn't adoptable. Thanks!
Lower Peninsula is either wasteland, under Toledo, under Superior, or roving bands of nomads. Ann Arbor, basically wiped out in the attacks and the refugee waves that followed. What is left is under Toledo by now.
Question: Would it have been possible for a southern Portuguese/Spainish city state, at the most the size of OTL Philadelphia, to gain power an set up a centralized government? Also, how hard was Estonia hit with fallout? Enough to for a coastal nation to thrive?
Well, I think that there should be some amount of anti-superior feeling in the lower peinsula, as the Upper Peinsula has never really considered themelves Michiganders like the Lower Peinsula. So there are probably movements to break off from Superior, and establish a Michigan Republic. But they might not be that powerful. Gurreila movements might be here and there, but there should some kind of war between the Upper Peinsula and Lower Peinsula. At least some parts of the Lower Peinsula will try to seccede.
Well, come to think on my last comment, there must be a movement to establish a Michigan Republic, as Ohions and Michiganders are natural rivals, and the whole issue with Superior. At some point, the Michigan will rebel against Superior and/or toledo.
Saturn, given what we know about that area of Spain/Portugal, no. Area is either sparsely inhabited, gone to complete chaos, or under states already.
Coastal Estonia already is a state.
Spartian, just because you don't consider it Michigan by much - and yes, that is more on you than any perceived attitude by people from the UP - doesn't mean a thing. I am well aware that your statement about them "not really considering themselves part of Michigan" is not true.
Fact of the matter is, the Lower Peninsula, outside of the northern areas of it, was damaged to the point where the only people left are what amounts to bandits, or small clan-like groups. Not only did the region suffer multiple strikes in its own right, but it also got truly massive doses of fallout from the Chicago blasts.
No one will "rebel" or try to "secede." That makes no sense at all. Those in the LP that are left are grateful to the UP residents for being alive, and recognize that the state of Michigan is long gone. The mere concept of a movement to establish a "Michigan Republic" is ludicrous.
Anyone who is interested in reestablishing any such thing is involved with a pro-US movement aimed at joining with the new US, and on the far-right side of things.
The areas where Toledo has power now are near Detroit. Three guesses how many people where there when they took over - more or less none. Nor is there anyone in likely areas of expansion for them.
The concept of there being feeling among the people in the former state of Michigan against Superior or Toledo is ludicrous.
Toby, going by current canon there would be a very small city-state in Bopulu. Guns and Fed more or less have it right for Kazakhstan. A small city-state in Fort-Shevchenko, on the Caspian, may work.
Really don't think it would be feasible - have a look at the Lawrence Kansas article. Have to think that anyone here would have gotten the message and went north. Either that, or went westwards to Hays, where we know something held out to be a part of the new US.
No nukes in SA, but still significant unrest. Expect the 1983 one to be cancelled partway through (though them doing a quick finish to it later on is not out of the question), and the 1987 one delayed a year.
Strongest... depends. Kind of got a "quality v.s. quantity" thing going on between the ANZC and SAC, if that makes any sense. Time on the side of the SAC, though.
No. Mexico is far and away the strongest, which will not go away, and Canada is probably No. 2. Would also rank Victoria, Superior, Virginia, Texas, Delmarva, and Kentucky as stronger than the new US as well. Florida would run in the same range as them. Don't see the US passing anyone on that list.