Talk:Timeline (Heute Europa)

From Alternative History

Operation Barbarossa

It makes no sense. By 1942 the Soviet Union would have built thousands of T-34's, so if Nazi Germany invaded in 1942 they would be slaughtered by Soviet tanks.

Bit of a space buff, so have a question on "Valkyrie-2".

How does the FIRST manned mission with only two men onboard....start construction on a space station?!?!

History provides SOME hints. Gagarin and Glenn spent a few hours in space floating around, but accomplished little else. Voskhod and Gemini launched multi-man missions, but again, orbited and did little else. It wasn't until Salyut was launched by the Russians and Skylab by the Americans in the early-mid-1970s (10 years after the first manned flight), that a space station was constructed.

I'd leave "space station construction" to ATLEAST the seventh, eighth mission. It would take that long for German scientists to figure out if Man could SURVIVE, much less work, in space.

Also, seems unlikely the space station would be named after Wernher von Braun, who was still alive. Most ships, etc. are named after people who have died. "Bismarck" or "Frederick the Great" Station would be more appropos.---Gare

Appreciate the changes, more logical. But, again, sorry to be nitpicking but on the death of the crew of "Valkyrie-5", probably more accurate to say "the CAPSULE exploded" than the "rocket exploded". More likely too would be failure of the heat shield, not an explosion (unless it was of the re-entry rockets)---Gare

All the Space terminology in this article I have discused with the space-boys over in the science section of the UNI. they assure me that the unstable fuel used in the early rockets could cause the rocket itself to explode. thanks for pointing out the mistakes, i haver grilled the boys in science for giving me all the false info. --- Das Taub

This is NOT a Sci Fi Timeline!

whoever deleted my edits on the timeline, i ask you this. Could you do a better version?

Historically, America has still not reached Mars, and could never reach mars by the 1970s. also the US Space program was driven by ex-german scientists like Von Braun. without them, the US could never get that far. with the massive german lead in rocketry, it would be them, not the Americans, who would reach the moon and mars first. I have been working on this timeline for yonks, and have massively endeered to make his as realistic as possible. what you are doing is turning this into a more sci fi, instead of a nitty gritty timeline about a german/japanese dominated world, and the social and political ramifications of that.

Das Taub

righy Das aub, if i am making it sci-fi, why did you put in the Braun station which was made unrealistically quickly? We are talking about a space station with the technology of 2050 at least, and you get it completed in the 50's with Germany ruling space forever.

furthermore, why then did you delete my section about the USA beginning experiments with Nanotechnology, which COULD be one way of the US compensating for a lack of a space programme?

what about Roswell and the alien tech? that would be at least realistic enough grounds for the USA getting to mars by 1970.

If the US has got alien tech, Which is very unlikely, why haven't they reached amrs yet?. the Von braun space station was a concept during the late 40's and would have been constructed if the germans had won. see the book "my Tank is fight'

maby the aliens never showed up in this timeline

well, why did you delete the segment about rumsfeld? i understand about the Trojan program and the mars bits, but why did you delete the IRA as well?

about the partisans Rumsfeld funds, could you add Al-Qaeda into the mix, which would bite the Americans in the ass later on?

Contents 1 Resistance movements 2 North and South America 3 overstretch 4 Pearl Harbor 5 the decline and fall... 6 the Decline and fall... part 2 7 Purchase 8 Islamists against Nazi Germany? 9 Second latin American war 10 peak oil 11 Latin America 12 economic translation 13 Axis crumbling... 14 SS 15 Russia Invation 16 Power struggle... 17 Argentine - German Relations 18 long knife 19 Future History 20 Nuclear War 21 peak oil pt.2 22 Corruption/infighting 23 Führer

[edit] Resistance movements

Wouldn't The IRA and UVF join forces to take on the Germans? Wouldn't Al-Qaeda stir up trouble in the Middle East seeing there are many Muslims there and Maybe the Vietminh would resort to bombing tactics. Maybe the Nazis and Japanese get spread too thin due to rebellions from conquering too quickly and just collapse. Just a few suggestions.

I would in spirit of this alternate timeline replace Al-Qa'ida with a Mujāhidīn rebellion. Al-Qa'ida was created in 1988 in the final phase of the Soviet War in Afghanistan. -- Realismadder 11:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Also you could have Jewish paramilitaries in the USA getting there hands on nerve gas or nuclear weaponry and giving it to soviet partisans in the Urals. also seeing as the Slav populations in eastern Europe are enslaved by the Nazi's you could have the Slavs getting there hands on weapon stockpiles and causing mass confusion and open rebellion.

[edit] North and South America

About the US becoming another superpower, why don't they band North and South America together as another sphere of influence?

many in south america historically supported the Nazis. this would polarize the continent. also, most latin american countries would be loath to abandon their independance.

[edit] overstretch

why do you have the Nazis ruling for all time?

How does Germany afford that space programme? It would have to take loans from Japan and the USA to ensure it can continue on that pace. It would lead to a depression where it is heading.

[edit] Pearl Harbor

Just curious: why is the Japanese advance delayed by 2 years? Is it just to keep the USA out of the picture? If so, is there an "in-universe" reason for it as well? Best regards, Benkarnell 14:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] the decline and fall...

Das Taub, i have presented a realistic scenario (NOT Sci-fi) where the Reich and Japan could collapse. So what do you think? Buk5 21:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

One of the points of this timeline was so that the nazis and japs would NOT just decline and fall. and the space program would be far less expensive for the Nazis for one reason: Slave Labour. its not a particullarly nice thing, but the nazis used slave labour for almost everything. since they didn't have to pay them a thing, it would make the space program a heck of a lot cheaper. the point of this timeline I have tried to explain. please cut me some slack.

Anyway Taub, i have just decided to make the reasons Germany is dependent on loans a mixture of reasons other then the space program and a plausible reason for the plague.. Let me know what you think. Buk5 20:14, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Despite all my pleas, it seems that everyone wants the nazis and japs to fall, despite the fact that the entire point of this timeline is that the nazis and japs would NOT just collapse. i liken the situation to the situation of 1984, with three superpowers that are two strong to collapse, and that oppose each other indefinately. i ask of you, i BEG of you, to please not destroy this idea i am trying to put across with this timeline. much of the contributions people are putting through is good, and i keep some of it, but some is either too sci-fi, or gives the US too much of an advantage, or just magically has good triumphing over evil, which in real life just doesnt happen. i beg of you all, to please keep the spirit of this timeline alive

FWIW, I don't care whether you have the Nazis and Japs fall; I just enjoy reading a good timeline. Which I think you've created. Louisiannan 19:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

would you still keep the plague idea?

furthermore, 1984 did not refer to the Nazis or the Japs. It was a critique of Socialism and Communism. Buk5 22:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

the plague seems to me to be too much of an apocalypce thing. Unit 731 would be massively careful, and would always have a vaccine made in case a virus went out of control. how could Al qaeda get their hands on a rocket that could get into space? it would be impossible. the 1984 idea of peretual war could easily apply to this TL, as well. please go along with my Point of View i just want my timeline to follow my view. DankeDas Taub 23:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

still, the Nazis could spread themselves too thin could they? That was why all superpowers fell, especially the Romans. Like the Germans and their Aryan policies on military, The Romans only allowed citizens from Rome to enlist.Buk5 00:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

One final thing, About perpetual war, i was thinking that the Germans and Japanese turn on each other, but are pushed from the brink by America with treaties that are parallel to SALT 1 and 2, alongside defecting scientists to America. Buk5 19:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, something in style of the Sino-Soviet split. - Realismadder 20:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that. both distrusted each other OTL, and this is a very likely scenario. however both would distrust the US, and this must be adressedDas Taub 00:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

perhaps since they share a border, that distrust can grow a la Sino-Soviet split, and maybe their distrust of the /us is superseded by that of each other. Buk5 08:00, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

About the "brain drain" with the people defecting and the German government's strict censorship. is that realistic? Buk5 14:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

would it be realistic if Germany were to experience technological stagnation ATL? Buk5 08:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] the Decline and fall... part 2

i was wondering, is the scenario of the Mars spaceship breaking up in the atmosphere realistic? It did happen before (Challenger Columbia, Beagle? et al.) and would you consider the Tokugawa station, Al Gore, German stagnation and defections realistic? let me know. Buk5 17:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

what do you think of my analogue of September 11? let me know. Buk5 11:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

some of the stuff you wrote is good, but some of it is slightly less plausable. historically germany was very good to the arabs, and wouldn't need to exploit their oil as Germany owns the caucauses Oilfields. they would respect their religion, and include them in the terrotory under germanys 'protection'

Don't forget the North Sea Oil, that of the Arctic as well. Louisiannan 19:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Also if terrorist attacks were made, germany would retaliate in force, with nerve gas and fuel air explosives, and more than likely with Nuclear weapons and/or dirty bombs.

most important of all, if any power saw they were falling behind in the cold war, they would make a Pre-Emptive strike and start WWIII, and thus destroy the world. which is something i do NOT want to happen.

Japan was always massively behind in rocket technology, even farther behind than the US.

Berlin, as the most important city in the reich, would be ringed by Anti-air missiles, and the Volkshalle is so big (almost a kilometre high) that a plane crash would not collapse it.

the direction the timeline is going is pretty good, but there is some roads less travelled that need to be avoided.

Das Taub 21:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

would the faulty circuit idea still be kept alongside the border corruption?

Border corruptions certainly, though the most important scientists would be watched by the Gestapo and the SD, and would have found it almost impossible to escape.

The mars orbiter would not land on mars, however one of the A45 Orbiters could blow up, or problems develope with valkyre 23s atomic reactor

would the faulty circuit idea still be kept alongside the border corruption? Buk5 21:42, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

would you consider the race for the Higgs boson realistic or Sci-Fi? Buk5 21:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

my Question is, is the Higgs boson important to the struggle between the super powers? how will it affect the cold war? it hasn't been detected yet OTL. it probably isnt Sci-Fi, but i don't know how it will affect the cold war. can you make a super A-bomb out of it? Das Taub 00:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

i don't know what the Higgs Boson can contribute, but the search for it could help find new ways of producing Anti-Matter (more destructive than Nukes). It could also herald primitive teleportation or more advanced computers. Either way, it can affect the prestige of nations if they manage to find it first. Buk5 08:11, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

would the VBMkII crashing onto berlin be realistic? let me know. Buk5 16:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

do you think that the devastation of Europe due to the Von Braun station crashing is realistic? let me know. Buk5 18:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Buk5, you're still going sci-fi with the timeline... Louisiannan 19:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

well, is it sci-fi that an atomic reactor malfunctions? Is it sci-fi that when a space station with a nuclear reactor collides with earth it causes a massive explosion and releases quite a bit of radiation?

No, but aliens? Anti-matter? Teleportation? A bit far-fetched. Louisiannan 22:09, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

well, i only mentioned the possibilities that the Higgs boson's discovery could bring. This discovery would bring prestige on the first superpower to discover it and thus be a milestone into the cold war. By the way, as of 2008 ATL, the US RHIC is still under construction. Buk5 22:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Purchase

is it realistic that the US attempt to purchase British commonwealth territory? let me know. Buk5 10:04, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

what do you think of my analogue to the Iran crisis? let me know. Buk5 10:05, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Islamists against Nazi Germany?

What are the reason? The Nazis' atheist stand (with only accepting believing in the Führer (Hitler)? Because Muslims and Nazis had the common goal with fighting the Jews. 80.164.102.254 00:41, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

after the Jews were wiped out in Europe and Asia, what common ground did they share? Buk5 11:42, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Second latin American war

what do you think of this scenario Das Taub?. Let me know. Buk5 13:23, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

with the germans and the Americans so eager to halt the first war, i believe they would clamp down on any attempts to start a second war, in order to preserve the stability of the region. Das Taub 22:09, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] peak oil

Das Taub, would you say that the geologist's concern about peak oil is realistic, since there is no OPEC ATL? Buk5 22:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Id definitely say that. see the way oil is going in this day and age, and imagine how much worse it could be, i'd say so Das Taub 22:34, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

do you think the Nazis would have suppressed or heeded the geologist? by the way, would you be interested in contributing to No 9/11? Buk5 22:40, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The Germans historically were working on artificial Oil since 1936, so they would most definitely heed the advice of peak oil productionists. my field of expertise is WWII, and i sadly know little about anything more modern that the arab-Israeli wars, and i cannot help with your No 911. thanks for asking me all the same. Das Taub 22:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

About the second Latin American war, i had Germany kick out Argentina from the GACP because they were not consulted about it. would you keep that idea? Buk5 22:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Germany would be loath to abandon a strategic ally such as Argentina. with its placing, it gives access to the pacific, and safeguards german shipping routes. it also is close to ATO terrotory, and this would be important for Germany to keep. germany would keep argentina in its sphere of influence at all costs Das Taub 22:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

how would you have the second Latin American war end? Buk5 23:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latin America

Das Taub, how do you think that the Second Latin-American war will end? Buk5 23:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Not that I have a say in this, but I would think something in style of the OTL Iran-Iraq War would be realistic. -Realismadder 00:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Das Taub 03:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] economic translation

Das Taub, how many US dollars would make a Reichsmark in 2008 Heute Europa? BTW, could ya help me in Second World War (Hitler is an American---Version 1) regarding the table for outcome belligerents and losses etc? Buk5 23:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Axis crumbling...

I was thinking that since Germany and Japan split up, maybe Italy can follow suit with Germany, and this leads to a fourth faction. Buk5 22:01, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

italy is far closer to germany then japan, and if germany see any signs of an attempted break off, they will most likely move troops into the country, much as they thid in OTL WWII, after the sicily landings Das Taub 00:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking. Since Germany and Japan split up (being on different sides of the world), maybe Germany and argentina could fall out, and the Second Latin American war is a symptom of that split. Buk5 20:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Hers an idea for the second latin american war. brazil and another ATO country fall out and go to war with each other. this causes a series of attempted breakaways and a shakeup of ATO. Argentina takes advantage of this and stabs Brazil in the back, invading it. Das Taub 22:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SS

Das Taub, would you say that the SS by 2008 have become too powerful, and could start a civil war, or have a redux of the night of the long knives? Buk5 13:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Russia Invation

...i was not read all your timeline yet, sorry but i see your map and your respectibe natios, and i dont think sow German conquer all europe russia, just because for population power, if Germans are is fighting or standing in polony and east europe they have nor a bigges army to stay or still for long time in europe russia ¿hitler nuked Moscow or Saint peterburgo? one europe country (germany one anybody) can´t control all europe, See napoleon and cry --Fero 03:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Power struggle...

Das Taub, would you say that the SS would be too powerful for anyone to control ATL, and it could lead them going they way of the SA or would there be a civil war? Let me know. Buk5 08:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Argentine - German Relations

Eva peron european Tour must be a good point of that in 1947, used for peron to win democratic election in argentine showing a power a care wife and argentinian women, legalice female vote and do some businness add german aceptation to the world argentine is le legitim owner of "malvinas" isles, position not acepten for the british and USA, falckand/malvinas was conques for argentine army below Generakl Peron, i suposs in 1946 or arround the end of british empire, about that was the speech of Juan Peron "America para los americanos" ("America to the americans" in english) but first time showing a position a little not in line with USA (in or/real world argentine was neutral in cold war, not like cuba, not like Canada, realy neutral in peron goverment, "a third position" a good member of "non alined countries", in Heute Eu, i think her position should be againt her personal empire, the American empire (like england is agains nazis or china is anot agree japan, that not signifid he think other empires are good, Argentine feel "every enemies of my enemy ("evil" USA empire) is my friend --Fero 05:57, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] long knife

Somehow, i think the SS wouldn't take a curbing of their power lightly. Do you think Germany would either descend into civil war or have a repeat of the Night of the Long knives? Remember the SS would be mighty powerful by the time Himmler croaks it (maybe they poisoned him). Buk5 10:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Future History

Das Taub, is it Future History if TTL goes into 2009 and beyond? Let me Know. And sorry about annoying you regarding the SS ATL. Buk5 21:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nuclear War

would you say the Italy/Pan-Arab Coalition nuclear devastation is realsitic? Let me know. Buk5 14:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Italy is the second most powerful state in Europe, second only to Germany. Germany would go to great lenghts to protect its ally. a nuclear war would probably spiral out of control. Germany would attack the US, blaming them, and then Japan would join in. even argentina using one nuke almost started WWIII. a full Nuclear war would go out of control rapidly. Das Taub 03:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

BTW, Das Taub, i was thinking. I have heard of a novel called warday (which i hope to get around to reading), which is about a limited nuclear exchange between the USA and USSR. Could ou imagine such a scenario for Germany and Japan? Let me know. Buk5 21:56, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

if thah happened, then the US would step in and soon become too powerful. germany and japan both have another enemy, and while they all stand equall there is a balance of power. if one pillar falls, then they all fall. also I like the Limited oil, but Germany would be far less affected, due to its artificial oil program. having almost 50 years to perfect the production of artificial oil, by the time peak oil takes place they will be well prepaired. owning all the caucases oilfields will also improve its situation. Peak oil might in fact be delayed, as almost all of it is owned by the Pan Arab Coalition, and they are far more stable than in OTL, with no Israel to disrupt them, and with the US to weak to seriously affect them, and germany as a strong ally. Das Taub 04:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

who would you say will be most affected by peak oil? let me know. Buk5 08:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Japan. they have only the Malayan Oilfields, and need more oil than the others, as their empire is nautical, stretching from hawaii to china to Australia, and they need oil for their ships and aircraft. peak oil would send them into a crash course program to find a sutible replacement, and fast. Das Taub 08:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] peak oil pt.2

Das Taub, would you say 2012 is a realistic estimate for the mayan oil fields drying up? Let me know. Buk5 08:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Judging by modern Estimates, none of the Malyan Oilfields would dry up before 2075. even if fuel hungry japan controlled it, it would still last well into the century. none of the worlds major oilfields have dried up yet, though eventually they will, but most probably not until well into the century. Das Taub 04:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Corruption/infighting

Das Taub, how endemic would corruption/infighting be in present day Nazi Germany TL? Let me know. Buk5 20:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Führer

I don't think anybody besides Adolf Hitler should have the title of Führer. The title was created by Hitler himself, and would have a similar meaning as the title former leader of North Korea Kim Il-Sung has in OTL: Eternal President of the Republic. - Realismadder 22:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)