Talk: Saint Muhammad

Helping in the TL

I am very interested in this TL, and I think it has a lot of potential. May I help in it? Fedelede 23:18, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to help also. Kdavis005 23:49, November 26, 2011 (UTC) and if it is possible I can work on the Kingdom Tunsia (with Carthage as the captial) with a different type of Church called the Carthage Church if that is possible.

Uh, I'd rather have it Catholic or Orthodox and with Punic or a revived form of Phoenician as one of the official languages. not Arabic. Fed (talk) 00:46, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

How about the name called Punic Church or the Phoenician Church using those languages?? Kdavis005 16:59, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not too sure of the idea but go ahead (hopefully that might revive the Phoenician language). Fed (talk) 04:49, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

I would recommend asking Fed. :D Imperium Guy 00:16, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Turtledove has already done the same thing in his Agent of Byzantium series. Wagner1 20:26, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

The idea in Agent of Byzantium is about the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires holding power until the XIII Century. Here they lose influence throughout the VIII. I don't believe in that the Sassanids and Byzantines would survive much longer as major powers if Muhammad had becomen Christian, and I've always found Turtledove's stories extremely implausible, so I won't base this timeline in it. Fed (talk) 20:33, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hey, could I help? From what I've read it looks like a really interesting TL.

The Royal Guns (talk) 14:52, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you could help, of course; I'd like to know what are your ideas for the timeline first though, but yes, you're welcome. Fed (talk) 15:25, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Ithought there would be a series of blocs, based on religion. Also, china would probably be hindu, and thus due to this communications would be better with India. Thus, a combined effort might have meant earlier discovery by the asians.

The Royal Guns (talk) 10:24, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hinduism

I would like to help in the hinduism part as I am a hindu. Would that be fine?? :D Imperium Guy 12:53, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but please don't turn Hinduism into the #1 RELIGIONZ EVAAA!!!!!!!!!! or anything like that, kay? Fed (talk) 21:39, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I know that Hinduism is only prominent in India and other south east countries. Minorities in other countries due to immigrants. :D Imperium Guy 12:53, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

My original idea. You can modify it as you see fit, of course.

Also the Muslim countries east of Iran in OTL (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia) and the rest of South-East Asia (but the Phillippines) in TTL. The map shows my original idea for Hinduism. Of course, you can modify it as you see fit if you want to. Fed (talk) 13:49, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know how to edit maps!! :/ The map there is what I was thinking it would be. The Phillipines also have a lage hindu population in OTL so I think it might be in the "hindu circle" as well maybe? :D Imperium Guy 18:26, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

About editing maps: it's pretty easy. I generally just use the paintbucket tool in pixlr.com (a free picture editing page) and sometimes, when I modify the borders, the paintbrush tool.

About Phillippines, okay. Also, I have an interesting question: What about Uyghuristan? It's crushed between the main religions in the Far East (Tengriism/Zoroastrianism, Hinduism and Buddhism) and I'm not really sure about which religion should it have. Fed (talk) 18:57, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Well, most of China would be mainly Tengriism and Zoroastrianism but it seems like Uyghuristan would probably have a lot of Chistians and a fair bit of hindus. This is because in OTL it is mainly muslim but without Islam in this TL, it would be mainly christianity and a bit of hinduism. I would say this because the muslim preachers would probably preach christianity and there would be slightly more hindu influence. What do you think? :D Imperium Guy 19:08, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

If Britain coloizes: Hindustan in Orange. Ugrystan: Red for Christianity and blue for hinduism.

BTW, does Nubia (guessing that is Britain) colonize India in TTL, because if it did, the whole "British Raj" would probably be one country, India or Hinustan because without Islam, no East or West Pakistan and with the majority of Burma hindus, they would want to stick around I would say. Your thoughts? :D Imperium Guy 16:14, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

The darkest part of Uyghuristan will be Hindu; the shaded one Hindu-influenced (this is my second map using Inkscape, so that's why it's sloppy :P). The dark olive is Tibet's "influence". The difference between Jammu and Kashmir is accidental.

{C {C}{C

I've got a kind of different approach to Uyghuristan planned now. Since I learned the Uyghurs converted en masse to Manichaeism (another religion) in ~800, I'll keep them like that (I'll have Uyghur and Kerait holy wars as TTL's Mongol Conquests or something). The Hindu parts will be those more influenced by Tibet (which might or might not practice "Tibetan Hinduism" with lama and everything but being more Hindu than Buddhist) whilst the north will remain Manichaeist, not Christian. What do you think? Fed (talk) 05:48, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

Nubia is actually OTL Sudan, lol (I guess it's called the "United Kingdom because it was originally four countries). About Hindustan, yes, of course. I also agree with the Uyguristan idea. Fed (talk) 21:38, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Just a trivial question, what yould Britain be called, would it be something like the "Greater Isles"? Happy to see you like the Uyguristan idea (spelt it wrong on the map :/ ). :D Imperium Guy 21:57, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

I actually have no idea, lol. Perhaps Albion or just plain ol' Britain? Fed (talk) 22:10, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe Great Britain? That's what the maps show when its not got the United Kindom written on it, lol. :D Imperium Guy 09:21, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Lol, perhaps... or Prydain (after the Welsh name, since I want for the Celts to have a stronger prevalence in Britain [Butterfly effect FTW, lol]). Also, I wondered if, besides the Hindustan idea, there could be a Parsi (Zoroastrian Indian) state somewhere in the Gujarati coast (it doesn't have to be independent, just a state of Hindustan) and a St.Thomas Church (Nestorians in India) around Goa or Chennai. Fed (talk) 19:52, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

More than possible that will happen. St. Thomas Church will be in the state of Goa. It is already a state in OTL (I suspect for the same reason ;). Chennai , I think would be a Union territory but the capital of Tamil Nadu, like the city of Chandigardh in India which is a Union territory as well as capital city for two states!! The Parsi state could also possibly exist. I would say it would have links to Iran because haven't they also got a Parsi population? :D Imperium Guy 22:36, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Really? Heh, I thought Goa was a state due to it being formerly Portuguese, not religious... But yeah, of course, lol. The Parsi state could possibly form a crucial part in Sassanid-Hindu relationships as well... Fed (talk) 01:18, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Well, and that (Goa was a state due to it being formerly Portuguese). Goa is mainly Catholic in OTL. I agree to the Parsi state forming a crucial part in Sassanid-Hindu relationships. From what I know, India and Iran have pretty decent relations. Same here probably, lol!! Do you think Indochina would exist as an independant country or everything, or most things, which happened in OTL would happen? :D Imperium Guy 22:31, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, BTW thaks for suggesting the map editing webside, this is the first map I have EVER edited and uploaded!! :D Imperium Guy 22:00, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Yay. :P Fed (talk) 22:10, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

What effect would "no muslims" have on the crusades? :D Imperium Guy 15:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC

SM Ideas

Probably either no crusades at all. That or the Crusades being like the Fourth Crusade of OTL. This would probably end up in either the end or a temporary resurge of the Byzantine Empire. {C {C}{C Fed (talk) 21:23, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Ehh... Jainism was founded before this POD, and it was a different religion so....

The Royal Guns (talk) 14:50, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

... What are you talking about? When have I said Jainism won't exist? Fed (talk) 15:32, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

... On the page it says that it is part of hinduism. Which it isn't.

Hey, you use pixlr too!

The Royal Guns (talk) 15:43, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I use pixlr. Pixlr is awesome :P. I've been drifting towards Inkscape recently, though.

About Jainism, well, the point is that Imp and I decided on joining the Vedic religions and categorise it as Hinduism to add a bit of leverage for the religion. Fed (talk) 15:48, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

In that case, you should include buddhism too. It's pretty similar to hinduism in ideals, and it was split around the same time as Jainism.

NOOO!! Pixlr is the best!

The Royal Guns (talk) 10:26, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Hinduism and Jainism are both very distinct religions, as is Buddhism, which has many differences with Hinduism. Classifying Jainism with Hinduism doesn't really serve a purpose, as Jainism is too strict to grow very large so it won't inflate Hinduism's numbers that much. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:18, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

They are very distinct, yes, but a religion might change in 1400 years of existance. Plus from what I can see Buddhism is not much more distinct than two branches of Christianity (their perception of God, method of worship, Bible, practices, curial caste, prayer and forms of evangelising all differ). Fed (talk) 15:25, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

In that case, this whole timeline is pointless, because Muhammad was already a Christian, because the differences between Christianity and Islam are the same, if anything even less different. LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:35, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

...That just makes no sense. I'm stating that it can be CATEGORISED like that, something to which you're just going against repeatedly. I've never once stated that Jainism and Buddhism are Hinduism, only that with 1400 years of influence and a different standard they can all be categorised as members of the same group. Fed (talk) 19:41, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

You said that the difference between Buddhism and Hinduism was no more than a denominational split like Christianity. But in any case, they are already classified as Dharmic religions in contrast to the Abrahamic religions.

You could just say that the triumph of Hinduism over Buddhism, which occured historically in India, occured in Southeast asia and Sri Lanka as well, and say that the Chinese purges against Buddhism (which failed in real life) were successful, if you want to decrease the number of religions you have to worry about. LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:45, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

...again, I said that they could be categorised as the same religion after 1400 years of influence because their differences are only slightly larger than the split between some Christian denominations.

I don't want to decrease the number of anything, Imp and I just accorded that the Vedic religions would be classified as Hinduism and branches to add some leverage to the Hindus. I'm meaning for more Hindu influence into Buddhist areas, nothing more. Fed (talk) 19:51, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Buddhism, in OTL, is as distinct from Hinduism as Islam is from Christianity, just not a slight denominational split. Why would Hinduism have such a greater influence on Buddhism in this timeline? LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:55, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

I believe that's obvious; certain events lead to a stronger Hindu state leader to more influence over Buddhist areas. Fed (talk) 00:04, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

Timeline

Here's the basic ideas for the Saint Muhammad timeline:

• 610: POD. Muhammad begins preaching a new branch of Christianity.

• He soon is able to gain a growing base of followers in Mecca which soon angers the Hedjazi tribal lords.
• 615: Muhammad is killed in Mecca by an Umayyad-hired assassin. The Christian community, furious, flees to Medina where, with the help of the Jewish community there, they are able to form a standing army.

• 621: the Medinans are able to take over Mecca after defeating the Hedjazi tribes near Jidda. The Empire of Mecca is established by Muhammad's child Fatimah. Article on Hedjazi War.

• 630: Fatimah begins a campaign against the tribal kingdom of Kinda.

• 631: Kinda and The Trucial states fall under the Fatimid army. Article on the Arabian Unification

• 632: The Sassanid Empire gives the Lakhmid kingdom, Oman and Bahrayn to the Fatimids in return they attack Byzantium and Ethiopia (possibly done by Byzantium handing over the Lakhmid kingdom and Hira/Arabia Petræa). Fatimah, a devout Christian, rejects the offer. Treaty of Hila.

• 635: Fatimah dies. Her son, 'Ali, agrees to the Sassanid deal and invades Byzantium (Persia). The Ghassanid (or Lakhmid) kingdom falls within days. article on Sassanid-Byzantine War of 635
  • Hila, Babylon and Fars (or Jeru salem, Palmyra and Petra) fall in May. The Perso/Byzantines, surprised by the fighting power of the Medinans, are forced to quickly withdraw.
• 650: The War ends with the Treaty of Palmyra. All of Armenia is given to the winner whilst either Saba or southern Syria and parts of the Levant are given to the Medinans. 'Ali dies shortly afterwards under mysterious circumstances. The next claimant is Ali's cousin Zainab.
• 652: The Sassanid Emperor Yazdegerd leads a campaign against Byzantium in order to continue the annexation/recover lost lands. However, he is killed by the Byzantine militia in the Battle for Trebizond. Emperor Constans II dies. War of Trebizond
• 653: Yazdegerd's child Peroz III succeeds, but, as he is very young, declares a regency by the Persian aristocrats, who decide to accord "everlasting peace and friendship" with the Byzantines, claiming "the wars have given us more good than harm". In it, Armenia and Aram are declared independent. This measure is extremely impopular both in Persia and Byzantium; however, both Peroz and Constans' son Konstantine are too young so to oppose the measure. Treaty of Babylon
• 665: Peroz banishes the aristocratic regency and declares the Treaty to be void. He soon amasses a huge army and marches on Armenia. However, an aristocrat, claiming descent from the Arsacid dynasty and support for the Christians in Persia, declares himself to be the rightful king of Persia, styling himself Arsaces LI. He soon amasses an army in Gombroon (Bandar 'Abbas).
  • Persian War of Succession
• 667: Peroz's army is forced to return from Armenia after the Peace of Yerevan, a makeshift peace accord signed when the news of the War come to Peroz' knowledge. Peroz marches southwards so to attack Arsaces' army.
• 668: Zainab dies and Ali's son Hussayn succeeds to the throne. He marries Shahrbanu, Peroz' sister. The Muhammadan-Sassanid ties forment the Medinan army to march easwards and meet Peroz' troops in eastern Mandaestan (OTL Khuzestan). A large battle is fought near OTL Shiraz, in which the Sassanid troops are defeated. Peroz is taken prisoner by Arsaces. The victory convinces fellow Arsacids in Armenia to invade Persia in Arsaces LI's favour.
• 670: Konstantinos becomes of age to rule. Seeing that the other powers are distracted in the East, he invades Armenia. As it is entirely unprepared, huge amounts of territory fall.

How does Muhammed take over Mecca after he as been killed? By the way, he should convert to Christianity in 610 (the year he converted to Islam) and he dies in 632 in real life. LurkerLordB 03:18, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Both were typos. Fed (talk) 03:55, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

OMG

I think I'm the timeline's newest fan. Do you have any future plans for this timeline? RandomWriterGuy 05:31, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Lol, thank you. I'm planning on opening it a bit more to the public (but I'd rather finish the basic TL before actually creating more states). Fed (talk) 21:15, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Islam to Christianity

Islam to Christianity?

Here's a picture I want to show that I got from Wikipedia:

Is it possible that the areas shown in color (that represents the extent of Islam) be all be replaced with Christianity? (and when I mean all, I mean ALL)

RandomWriterGuy 05:07, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

All except the areas of hinduism shown on the previous maps. :D Imperium Guy 07:45, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Uh, no, not at all. Nothing east of Iran (except for some cities) are Christian. Fed (talk) 17:08, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

You may be wrong though. The Mognol invasions would occur as in OTL, right? And in OTL, Tamerlane, one of the last Mongol conquerors, converted to Islam in Persia. Is it possible he may be converted to Christianity instead? And spread that religion to other parts of Asia along with his desendents? (Like Babur who conquered India in OTL). RandomWriterGuy 03:54, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

AFAIK Tamerlane was born a Muslim. And Persia is Zoroastrian in TTL. Plus, I doubt everything will be exactly like OTL (with only replacing "Islam" for "Christianity"). Remember, the locals had their own religion befofe the advent of Islam. Fed (talk) 04:02, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Well, we do know about the size of Tamerlane's empire, right? Then in this timeline, he is born a Christian. And creates an empire the size of the OTL Tamerlane empire and spread the religion as he did. Does that work?

RandomWriterGuy 05:26, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

I don't want for all of the world to be Christian. Fed (talk) 05:39, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

I not trying to say that (and I am sorry if I do). I'm just saying that Tamerlane's empire might spread that religion to the areas it conquered (including India). RandomWriterGuy 05:50, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

But I don't want Tamerlane to spread Christianity to Persia and India. Bukhara and Samarkand already will have high Nestorian populations as will China, and the Kerait Mongols will be Christian. I think that's enough Christianity for the East. Fed (talk) 05:55, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

I like where this timeline is going so far. As for the Tamerlane issue, it's really a matter of history. If Mesopotamia is conquered by any christian state, then the Sassanid Empire, the main Zorostrainist state would look weaker and a conqueror like Tamerlane might seek to affiliate himself with a "stronger" faith. If not, he's probably a Zorostrain.

Also, this seems a bit random, but where do the Khazars come into this? Their empire could have significant affects on other states. Michael Douglas 03:28, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

I have Sassanid influence into the Gökturk khanate causing Khazaria to split and spread west and south.

Mesopotamia willmprobably remain Christian, but Parsistan's and Persia's influence won't decline hence Timur is a Zoroastrian. Fed (talk) 04:49, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

With all the butterfly-effect changes that go on because of this POD, it's more than likely that Timur himself would not be born. (Though it would be very plausible to have other, similar Central Asian conquerors of various faiths.) Benkarnell 05:29, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Mongol Legacy on Christians

We all know that the Mongols (Genghis Khan) are going to come barging in just as they did in OTL. However, how much influence or effect will they have on Christianity? RandomWriterGuy 01:42, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the rollback, it was an accident.

About the Mongols, they will probably go on a path similar to OTL (settle down in the regions and later convert to the local religions). Do remember though, most OTL leaders and events won't be like those in TTL due to the butterflies.

Some Naimans, Ongud and Kerait, already Nestorian, will integrate into the Aramaic terriories around OTL Baghdad. They will bring Mongol influence into the language and religion. While some/most of the settlers remain speaking Turkic languages, many will adopt their own dialects of Aramaic (known as "Neo-Imperial" due to it being born during the Mongol Empire) and turn into part of the ruling caste of Aram.

Other Mongols, especially the Manichaeistic Uyghurs, will decide to settle among the Manichaean communities in the Sassanid Empire, mostly concentrated in eastern and southern Persia. These will also bring Uyghur influence into the local languages, and will soon become the ruling caste of the Manichaean communities.

In the north, Nestorians will be "Uralicized" by the Uralic tribes, with a Golden-Horde like government partially overrunning Rus'.

• • Do remember though, the Mongol conquests will be closer to a migration and not to an actual conquests. There will still be wars and the likes, but it will be more peaceful.

I'll write more later. Fed (talk) 03:20, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Whoever created this ATL, I must strongly disagree with you. You really can't have a plausible explanation for Muhammad to change to Christianity. Islam said he met God/Allah, and that God/Allah sent numerous revelations to him. No offense though. I respect your ideas and I am not trying to start a religious-based schism. Scrawland Scribblescratch 03:16, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Muhammad saw an angel, not God himself, according to the Quran- and really, what Muhammad saw in what may have been (no offense intended) an epilepsy-based hallucination, and the fact that Islam and Christianity are highly similar... I believe Muhammad's views could've easily be considered Christian with only small changes since it's an altogether new branch of Christianity and all. Fed (talk) 03:58, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Add to that that what Islam's core beliefs and original ideas are very similar to Christianity, and that much of what is associated with the religion today is actually the culture of the small tribes of Arabia, and was added to the religion long afterwards. Lordganon 08:43, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

America

Okay, so, before I forget my ideas for America, I'll place them here.

• Smallpox outbreak? I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I really, really don't want to have the smallpox outbreak be as strong as it is OTL. Therefore, I'm having the pagans, and not the Christians, be the primary conquistadors. Since it was the pagans who brought the smallpox inocculation west, the Americas will boast of being the first continent to have a large amount of inocculated people. This will lead to a far larger amount of indigenous people and nations - Instead of a mostly white and African Western Colombia, we'll have a confederation of several indigenous tribes named Kindiyo (after the Quimbaya word for "paradise", a white and mestizo Cundinamarca will become Muisca and Quechua Kuntur Marqa, and most of the coast will become Tayronistan. However, there will still be large white minorities in the countries and two colonial nations - the Phoenician Qart Hadasht (New City) and Greek Basileia (Royal Palace). The territories will still be colonized but the conquest will be more pacific.

• POD in the Americas? So to add more of a butterfly effect in America, I'm thinking about a second, minor POD in Mesoamerica. Right now, my favorite contestants are:
  • Jun Ujol Chaak of Tikal conquers Clakmul and Caracol leading to a unified Mayan Empire (Mayastan?) in 679
  • Teotihuacan doesn't collapse due to civil unrest in the 750s?
  • the Quimbaya cacicazgos unify leading to a contesting nation to the Muisca Confederation and the establishment of more advanced civilisation in Colombia?

That's it for now: I'll add more later. Fed (talk) 19:42, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

I would think that these I Ideas are good for America in general. I think the Aztecs should occupy around the same area as OTL Mexico. For North America, we should have the northern fringes as an Inuit nation (I am guessing they will also be inocculated) and the rest one great nation (excluding the Aztecs), including the tribes and white immigrants to North America. What do you think? :D Imperium Guy 19:57, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

I actually would prefer the Aztecs to only rule part of Central Mexico (XE1) together with the Toltecs and the Teotihuacan Civilization, or might form the Nahua Federation or Mexico with the Toltecs. the Mayans to the south and other tribes across Mexico (map coming soon). The Uto-Aztecan nations can partially form some sort of Federation of Aztlán. The Otomi and Totonacan languages will have their Mixtec, Zapotec, and Teotihuacan nations. (once again, more to come) Fed (talk) 20:15, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Fair point. What about my ideas for the rest of North America? :D Imperium Guy 21:24, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really agree to it due to the sheer amount of divisions between the Native American tribes, although something could be reached in some way. Fed (talk) 01:37, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Con mis fuerzas casi extintas a vasto imperio llegué!

Puse pié en tierra de Incas, o sea,

Hice h-inca-pié!

-----

Somos los Incas,

Un pueblo Inca-nsable,

Nuestras riquezas son todas Inca-lculables,

Abominamos de Inca-utos e Inca-paces,

Pero nuestras canciones son todas Inca-ntables!

(From the Argentinian bandles Luthiers (speed to ~8:40 for the song, the whole story is worth watching though; Kath y otros hablantes de español, ustedes entienden esto mejor xD)

... Anyways... I've been thinking about this, and I'll establish a basic point for America.

I've decided that the POD in the Americas will be Jun Ujol Chaak's; A unified Maya empire will then bring organisation via expeditions and trade to the southern Colombians in Kindiyo and will partially counterbalance the Aztecs and Incas. The butterfly would eventually expand throughout the Americas.

Anyways, fast-forwarding a few hundred years, the discovery of the Americas (I have no idea how they will be named in TTL) will probably be brought on by an European trying to find India without paying tariffs in Aram. Same with the Persians trying to go west.

The first area to be discovered will probably be either Kindiyo and Basileia (Venezuela), followed by most of Mexico.

The Inca empire will be among the last to be discovered and among the most hardly hit with the smallpox outbreak, although it will near entirely stop after the Mazdakists, also pre-Communists, reach in and innoculate everybody due to the political similarities.

This really shames me on saying, but I realized my Mayan and Incan empires are very similar in plan from that in Superpowers. The influence will be very loose; the Mayans will be thecnocratic and have a huge lifespan, and the Incas will be communist (although this is an OTL fact in the Incas' case). {C}{C Now, let's go back across the Pond and think about the British Isles and the Middle East. You guys (if any of you is reading this xD) must be thinking: "why did Fed suddenly become more implausible in this timeline?". Well, the answer is, I've run out of ideas. The Gardens of Babylon, trade problems and stuff are a way to let the Middle East chill out after such a quick succession of wars and help Byzantium recover.

I started with the British Isles TL, although now I think it's a bit too exaggerated. I need some help with the Saxon conquest of the British Isles (although the main localised POD [not for the TL but influenced by the Middle East's] will still be Cadwallon's victory over the Northumbrians).

I'll, as always, write more about this later. Fed (talk) 20:46, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Not bad at all, and I am reading, lol!! BTW, whats the harm in "nicking" a few good stuff from Superpowers to make this one better?

As we are in Europe, could we have the Byzantium and Holy Roman Empire form an alliance due to their theoretically same point of beginnings, Italy? I would wish that this could go in Such a way that the Holy Romans manage to get into Italy from the North while the Byzumtians getting South Italy and both the countries sharing out Rome? BTW, this hypothetical alliance could be another way for the Byzumtium to recover, with maybe the Middle East not having to chill (its all up to you, mind).

I think this is all so far. :D Imperium Guy 22:32, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the main problem with the HRE-Byzantium alliance is that the HRE and Byzantium competed over the title of "Emperor of Rome" (Yes, that actually was a problem in the West at some point) and that the Schism already happened; plus, the HRE doesn't exist per se as of the VIII Century. And I do want to have the Mideast cool off, only I think I went off too quickly. I will put them into a slower timeline (First, Damascus and Eliat; second, a new Nabatean port, third, Petra, and fourth, the Gardens). In the west, a Byzantine-Lombard Alliance attempting to re-establish a short-lived Western Roman Empire and the East-West Union with the Lombards and the Carolingians switching sides. Some sort of holding the trade with Europe's main lines (maybe with Southern Spain being granted to Byzantium again?) will allow re-build its treasury. Of course, the Western Roman Empire will be VERY short-lived.

I really don't want to have a lot of Superpowers influence because not only is it one of my favorite TL's but also it is one of the most known TLs in this site, so the similarities will be blatantly obvious. Although I guess it'll be okay as long as the influence remains small as I have it.

The Brits' timeline will also probably be similar but will go slightly more slowly (although I still want an unified Pyrdish Kingdom of at least Dumnonia-Cornwall, Wales and Cumbria and possibly the Picts by the Viking attacks in the 790's). Fed (talk) 22:58, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Okay; now I have a basic plan for Europe.

Basically, Byzantium will have a "golden age" just before the ascent of Anastasius I. The army will be the largest, the money will be flowing and Byzantium will be able to counter the Avars in the north, recovering most of its 400's boundaries in Europe.

After the collapse of the Avars et Bulgars in Europe the Byzantines will fall to Anastasius and everything described in the Middle Eastern timeline. However, just before the Schism, there will be a last semi-political agreement with the Lombards; they will hand up all land in Italy save Messina, Sicily, Malta and enclaves in Rome and Ravenna.

Eventually, the Lombards will partially become Romanised and will establish the Empire of the West, and, with Byzantine aid after Anastasius II's death (yet to come) conquers a large amoun of the old Western Roman Empire before once again collapsing a la the Frank Empire. Shortly afterwards, the Empire becomes the Kingdom of the Italians or something along those lines. Fed (talk) 23:59, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Nice. I like these Ideas!! :D Imperium Guy 23:07, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Do you have any other ideas you would like to suggest? :D

By the way, the timeline in Africa will only start during an Ethiopian discovery of the Great Lakes area or something (without counting, of course, Ethiopia and the Maghreb) since I don't know a iota of the ancient African tribes and very few of the colonial one and Wikipedia has near to no info about pre-colonial Africa (or any period of Africa by any matter, lol) Fed (talk) 03:29, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, Africa is an area which needs more thought. I also think that a united Greater Mahgreb state and an Ethiopian Empire could make the colonial period quite exciting and full of... skirmishes. :D Imperium Guy 14:17, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

For America, why would that happen? I mean, there are many reasons European came to explore America (and also conquer it). I am very confused about the concept. RandomWriterGuy 05:28, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, RWG, but what of everything I have stated in this section are you confused about? Fed (talk) 20:47, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

That nproposals you mentioned at the top of the article> RandomWriterGuy 23:16, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

But which exactly? The smallpox? The Mayans? Or the Incas? Fed (talk) 00:38, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

To make it honest: everything. Why would that happen? There are reasons Europeans conquered the Americas, and it should be like that in this TL. RandomWriterGuy 22:44, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

RWG, I really can't answer you if you don't give me a puntual question.

In the first place, the smallpox stuff will be because after American conquests the Pagans, watching the terrible sickness they've brought upon the natives (most of them being humanistic anyways), will begin innoculating them.

The Mayas will only be a new POD.

The Incas are physically away from the discovery center so they get worse stains of smallpox.

Did that solve it? If not, please ask me a punctual question. Fed (talk) 00:34, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

If it's about Muhammad converting to Christianity, how would it effect the Mayans and Incans? Why would it not be the Christians, and the pagans who discovered America? RandomWriterGuy 23:01, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

The Mayans have another POD. Not related to Muhammad's at all..

The Pagans will form sizeable minorities in the countries who discovered America. Read the Middle East, 610-750 page. Fed (talk) 23:05, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

If its about Muhammad coverting to Christianity, there should be no Mayan POD. Also, why can't the other Christian nations fight against the pagans. What about Charlemange? RandomWriterGuy 21:52, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, first of all, could you make your response time slightly quicker than "Slightly under 24 hours?"

...What the hell do you mean about the Muhammad thing? It's a new POD altogether. Not related to Muhammad's at all, as I've said before.

Wha? Christian nations fight against the Pagans? What do you mean?

And where does Charlemagne come into this? Fed (talk) 22:40, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Forgive me for making this confusing. Here what I am trying to say:

Charlemagne was the a major cause of Europe being Christian. Will he still fit that role in this TL?

Take that back about the Christian nations thing. Sorry about that.

And for the Mayan POD: why do you want that to happen if the POD is about Muhammad? RandomWriterGuy 06:09, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Charles was not a cause for Christianisation in Europe except with the Germans, which will be easy enough to solve (the Germans will have high relationships with the other three, Christian, empires in Europe, so...). Charlemagne will certainly not exist in TTL; the great Western Empire will be the ex-Lombard Kingdom.

And I want a Mayan POD because I want changes in Europe before the discovery. As I've said many times before, it has nothing to do with Muhammad. Fed (talk) 17:02, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I get it for the Mayan POD. I'll let that go.

Why won't Europe be as Christians as it was in OTL? RandomWriterGuy 19:30, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Europe will be Christian, it will only have Pagan and Jewish minorities. Fed (talk) 19:32, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I want to know one question: how come? RandomWriterGuy 04:34, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Read the timeline. There's a "Pagan Revival" in the Middle East which later spreads across the globe. Fed (talk) 19:49, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

Religion of Central Asia

Would Central Asia be mostly Zoroastrian, or mostly Nestorian Christian, or something else? The section on religions mentions there being Nestorian populations in much of central Asia, while in all of the maps the Iranian nations control at least the southern portions of the region. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:40, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Modern day Iran and Afghanistan would probably remain Zoroastrian, with soviet central asia becoming Nestorian as well as Uyguristan becoming Christian. Kazakhstan and Kirgyzstan would have some Tengriism.

92.52.25.217 18:52, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Vagueness

I vaguely seem to recall vaguely offering some very vague help in this fairly vague timeline, a long time ago, so long ago that the very details of that encounter are... how shall I put this... vague.

=)

How can I make you lives more surreal-, ehh, help with this timeline?

           Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  20:31, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Yay SM will be back! :D

You're welcome to help with the TL, Guns. Just tell me what would you like to help in!! Fed (talk) 00:34, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

How can I help? let's actually make this work! Get a featured! TL of the year! LET'S DO THIS THING!!!

           Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  00:37, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

See the word "Let's"?

HELP!!

           Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  23:47, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

Spit the religions

Why don't we split the Religions?

I'll take Zoroastrianism, Fed can take Christianity, Impo takes Hinduism...

Also, can we have a Zoroastrian Russia? Much more important as a religion?

           Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo!  00:27, December 14, 2013 (UTC)

The religion thing:

• Christianity:
  • All of Europe would be Christian
  • All of former Ottoman empire as well
  • Also Sudan and Somalia would become Chrisitan as well as Zanzibar.
  • In western Africa, it depends on what happens with Carthage and Mauritania. Most probably  Christianity would spread to that extent as Islam in OTL but  more slowly.
  • As with Asia, Ex-Soviet central asia would be Christian as well as Uyguristan and possibly some Mongols
• Zoroastrism- Iran, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, parts of Tajikistan, Pakistan, Oman and possobly southeastern Iraq

92.52.25.217 18:57, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Possibly also more possiblities of Christian uinity since the 5 partiarchates of the original pentarchy remain remain without Muslim influence., so the Rome-Constantinople dispute does not occur since there is the Antiochian, Jerusalem and Alexandrian patriarchate.

Therefore I think the Iconoclasm controversy might not occur in Byzantium and Reformation in Europe might not occur either..

92.52.25.217 19:00, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

We think Zoroastrian Russia, actually.

RIGHT FEDDY BEAR?

I promise to be nice and not squirrevolt!

           Tonight the foxes will hunt the hounds!  18:14, August 13, 2014 (UTC)

The Countries

I want to improve this timeline, but I want to do this through countries. I added a Ghana page, but in this timeline are Ghana a country?