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Rather unlikely that he'd win the Battle of the Yellow Sea on his own. The Russian Pacific Fleet was outnumbered, after all.

Really, all you need to do to have a better outcome is have him, unlike the guy that inherited the fleet otl, keep the guns on board the naval vessels, and actually leave the port when the Japanese Army made it unsafe. Many of them should, in theory, survive the breakout attempt, and then Tsushima would go the complete opposite direction as the two Russian fleets smash into the Japanese from the front and back.

Currently, this timeline really understates the Japanese positions in Manchuria. There's no way that the Russians can get Korea.

Also, Petropavlovsk is a place name - could you please find a different name for the timeline? Thanks.

Lordganon (talk) 11:12, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I had the feeling that something wasn't right in what I had written. I have been pretty busy lately, and will make corrections next chance I get.

Szebastian (talk) 22:02, August 26, 2013 (UTC) 

Whenever you feel like it ^^ Just glad to see another decent writer pop up on the site. Lordganon (talk) 12:56, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

So I added a few things in including the Japanese troops in mainland Asia and the sort-of reverse Tsushima. I still need to edit and revise some things as well as change the title, just as soon as I figure out what to.

Szebastian (talk) 02:48, August 28, 2013 (UTC) 

Better in some ways, worse in others.

Remember, the Japanese fleet in the Yellow Sea outnumbered and outgunned the Russian Pacific Fleet. Yes, when ordered to move to Vladivostok a fair portion of the fleet could get there - but they would take losses in doing so. In a straight-up gunnery match with the Japanese ships, the Russians would at best win a pyrrhic victory. And if you win like that, you may as well have lost. More likely the Japanese win a mildly better version of that kind of victory.

In the otl Battle of the Yellow Sea, had the admiral not gotten killed that soon, it is likely that most of the fleet would have gotten away. Even if they had sill turned around, he'd have still tried again before the land artillery destroyed the ships. Cannot begin to understate how incompetent it was for his replacement otl to not even try to get them out after it was no longer safe.

Basically, they aren't going to be all that much of a threat to Japanese supply lines. Not until the Baltic Fleet arrives, anyways. And, for that matter, Japanese supply lines would not be in range of the Russian fleet anyway.

You're vastly over-stating the Trans-Siberian. Fact of the matter is, the Japanese could move troops into the battle area much easier.

Overall, you're still going to see fighting and battles throughout Manchuria.

Really, the difference would be that in the end, the Russians would come somewhat on top with regards to the navy. Unlike otl where they lose both.

For a peace, something more akin to the Russians getting the majority of Manchuria, and the Japanese getting both Korea and a small part of Manchuria would be likely. Maybe a hundred miles north of the Yalu, give or take. Neither one would be annexing it in this context, though both would do it somewhere around 1910.

How about "Reverse Tsushima" as a title? That actually does sound good.

Lordganon (talk) 12:50, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

Great, it does make a good title.

Szebastian (talk) 16:48, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I do agree that I need to make it so that Russia's victory is more of a pyrrhic one, considering Japan's advantage in numbers. I also need to fix some of the events having to do with the ground war in Manchuria and work on the ending some. As for the treaty however, In my opinion, if Russia won this war, even if it was a pyrrhic victory, I couldn't see Japan gaining territory where the war was fought considering Russia basically having Manchuria as somewhat of an unofficial part of their nation as well as exerting some influence in Korea. Though I think a more realistic treaty would probably tightened Russian control over Manchuria and allowed Russian troops in Korea. Eventually leading to Manchuria's outright annexation in say 1910, as you said. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Szebastian (talk) 23:05, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

If you win a pyrrhic victory, that means you barely won. Even the final naval battle here would be of a similar nature. This would have been very obvious to all powers, as well.

Remember, Russia is still going to more or less lose the ground war. Winning at sea is at most half the battle, remember.

That's an exaggeration of Russian influence in Manchuria, imo.

Russia held no influence in Korea prior to this war. All Japan's, I'm afraid.

Fact of the matter is, Japan would have made large gains in Manchuria still. While it might be possible to keep them from gaining any parts of it in a peace treaty - I highly doubt it - there is virtually no way that the Russians get anything, whatsoever, in Korea.

Lordganon (talk) 13:33, August 29, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, so how about a treaty much like the 1903 proposals by Russian and Japanese diplomats before the war where Russia recognizes Japan's interests in Korea and Japan recognizes Russia's in Manchuria, with a neutral zone located between the 39th Parallel and the Yalu. 

Szebastian (talk) 21:49, August 29, 2013 (UTC)

I would like to agree with LG. This is a good beginning. Please do continue. :D 1 Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:55, August 29, 2013 (UTC)

With the angle - of sorts - that Korea is at, a line of latitude doesn't really work. Much the same problem the Americans and Soviets had there after WWII.

The thing with those proposals, is that the Russian one was rather out to lunch. Same with the "neutral zone" they demanded. It would, at most, be 20-40 miles on both sides of it. Not something that screws Japan.

Add to that the mutual recognition of interests, some sort of minor Russian concession in southernmost Manchuria (likely something akin to the railroad interests otl) and that'd probably about as good as it gets.

Draw, all-around, with a minor concession by Russia as more or less a de-facto recognition of the Japanese position on the ground.

Lordganon (talk) 10:16, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. I'll get back to writing. Thanks for your help.

Szebastian (talk) 13:35, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

It is a very good timeline that I rarely seen recent days. Keep your good work. :) FirstStooge (talk) 13:42, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

No problem. If you have any questions, want advice, need a sounding board, etc. just give me a shout. Lordganon (talk) 15:08, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

Been away for a bit, but I have a few ideas for how to continue the timeline. I was thinking that as a result of the Russo-Japanese War, Russia grows closer to Germany, which had given Russia its support, and farther away from France which had signed the Entente Cordiale with Britain, Japan's ally. In the end, we see an alliance between Russia, Germany, maybe Italy, and some of the Balkan states versus Britain, France, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire. The Great War, possibly begining over a Balkan crisis, goes fine until revolt breaks out in Russia, prompting its withdrawal and ending in victory for the Entente powers. In the end, Russia loses Finland and Poland to the revolters and the czar is reduced to a figurehead. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

Szebastian (talk) 01:05, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

No way.

Germany gave them less support than France did, imo. Matter of fact, Germany played both sides, and all the powers knew it.

Britain was an ally of Japan only under certain conditions - basically keeping other powers from intervening in any fighting. Matter of fact, Japan using that as a pretext to get involved in WWI went against it in a lot of ways, lol.

A-H had a long-standing treaty of alliance with Germany. And all the other powers either considered them worthless as an ally, or in direct opposition to their interests. They won't be involved with anyone else.

Much the same goes for the Ottomans.

Basically, except in the case of Italy, there's a very good reason why the alliances went the way they did otl. There is really no way to change that with a PoD during that war.

Lordganon (talk) 14:11, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Even with more Russian ships surviving the Russo-Japanese War, their navy still isn't going to be in competition with the Brits.

Japan would annex Korea within a few months of the Russians doing the same in Manchuria.

Lordganon (talk) 11:57, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

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