Talk:Permian Extinction: Civilization

From Alternative History

Firstly, sapience is a specific type of intelligence. Secondly, I can't think of any suitable animal in the Permian that could become sapient. --Sikulu 09:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Which is why I'm kicking back my PoD a few million years, giving more time for such an animal to evolve. Furthermore, a) we know next to nothing about the intelligence levels of such animals, AFAIK, b) sapience is not the only thing lacking about Permian animals - tails were generally too big and the gait much too wrong for bipedality (not to mention legs being too short), and c)over millions of years, animals could've evolved to become sapient and bipedal, given chance mutations and regional isolation, as well as appropriate challenges. Language could've developed, etc., etc. As for the animals themselves, I'm postulating a bipedal, omnivorous descendant of the carnivorous gorgonopsians (carnivores have more need for intelligence than herbivores, and omnivores probably need more intelligence than both), probably with a small tail. Such descendents would have been isolated by an event at PoD, possibly chance wandering into a dry area near small forests where those descendents take to trees, and then hit the ground as the trees die off. Those animals then become sapient, taking on language, culture, religion, and other phenomena often seen in sapient life. Rickyrab 21:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It'll be interesting to see how this TL evolves. Louisiannan 00:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

That could work, I suppose. But you do have to have a period of relative climactic stability for a civilisation to develop properly. I'm not sure if the Permian is really suitable for that. --Sikulu 08:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

We have no record, really of the climate, as our ice-cores go back only several hundred thousand years, and I doubt there's anyway for us to conclusively know if this Alt-hist "technically" could work or not. Louisiannan 10:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

But what is "relative climactic stability"? Human civilization - if there is such a thing ;o) - has evolved during the current "period of stability",which is only 10-12,000 years. And "intelligent life" (again a matter of definition) started evolving long before that, and evolved over a period with on-off glacial periods. And, as has already been mentioned, we know next to nothing about climactic changes in the Permian era. A very interesting premise, though... :o) Michael riber 18:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ordovician Civilization?

Do you think we should have an article on a Ordovician period civilization? If the Ordovician-Silurian extinction event which killed off 60% of all species the cephalopods that existed during that time period which had very high levels of intelligence comparable to the intelligence of modern-day dogs and cats would have developed further and eventually would have possibly evolved into intelligent life forms.--71.234.233.163 16:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm considering doing a timeline like that myself. However, I'm rather busy working on another timeline at the moment. --Sikulu 08:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brachiopods as a resource

It is unlikely that brachiopods could provide enough food in comparison to bivalves. For starters, the flesh of clams and their kin fill much of the interior, part of which is enlarged for the gills. Brachiopod shells have a large chamber without flesh, but bony struts for a unique feeding aparatus covered in microscopic cilia - the lophophore. Thus the flesh of a brachopod comes from the very back of the shell in a small margin.

Additionally bivalves have enormous muscles for pulling the shell closed, adding to the edible part of its body. Brachiopods have two, but the lophophore makes it relatively useless because it drags its food into its body rather than siphoning it like bivalves (this also explains why fossil brachiopod shells are found permanently closed).

So if a civilized society utilizes brachiopods as a food resource, they would have to collect more of them to satisfy the same amount of flesh as an oyster or mussel.

I just put this here for some further contemplation. One should look at a civilization's resources and their present examples.

Good point204.52.215.107 21:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)