Talk: Constitutionem Sacri Romani Imperii (Principia Moderni II Map Game)

I tried to make the manifest as traditional as possible, but I am open to suggestions. Please also let me know if you think of something much better than "Manifest." Monster Pumpkin (talk) 20:47, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

I can play around and try to find a pleasant sounding Preamble.Andr3w777 (talk) 21:11, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

how about this

The People of the Holy Roman Empire, as bestowed by our God and Emperor, hereby present these rights unadultured and unalieble. To ensure domestic Union and National Strength, Establish a secure Nation, and To ensure State Sovereignty. Let this document be asundered by no man, lest God Himself strike Him down. Let these unified States stand resolute for evermore.

Andr3w777 (talk) 21:15, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 21:18, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Is it good enough to be used?Andr3w777 (talk) 21:19, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

I think it shouldn't say "people", we are not a republic, we are an Empire, so it should say something like: The Emperor under God's will or the Leaders, etc. I mean, the power is something associated with the Emperor and the nobility, not the people (in that time). Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 15:25, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

People was used to describe an Empire as well, the Roman Empire's motto had the People written in it.

And the asiatic Empires had God-like Emperors. You have to consider Roman history as a Republic, and "The Senate and People of Rome" is not talking about the people inside the Empire, is talking about an elite, a Roman elite. Thats what I mean, the real power is the elite, not the peasants (at least they thought that). Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 16:07, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

This I understand, but we ARE ruled by an elite as well as the Emperor. and we claim to be the sucessor to the Roman Empire, so would it not be in line to use that terminalogy? We all know we don't me the People as in everybody, so what is the big deal?Andr3w777 (talk) 18:40, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

I wrote a kind of "constitution", something more complex and large, but specific enough to avoid any conflict in the future and make celar everyone's powers. Ill post it as soon as I finish it. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 17:02, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

You clearly spent a lont of time on this. I like most of it, and there are only a few changes that need to be made. They will either be crossed out or underlined to show the changes.

Very good work.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 19:57, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have but two objections. The imperial capital things seems good but:

1. If we allow every nation of the Empire to vote (we know we will make every nation sign the Treaty) then we will have to many non-player nations and vassalized nations voting, and the HRE is aristocratical, that's why the Golden Bull limited vote to seven princes. I think the current players, their current vassals and Bohemia are enogh.
2. A right granted to electors in the HRE was to mint their own coinage because it was an important deal, and I'm sure at least Calais will want its own money, the english penny, as will every nation with its own commercial interests such as Genoa and Venice, if they are plausible.

What do you think? --Galaguerra1 (talk) 20:16, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

1. I think the main problem with that is that if a state cannot vote, then it feels like is deosn't have enough of a role in the government. Also, I forgot one rule which I will add shortly.
2. But then we run into problems like other states economies affecting each other. That would be bad.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 20:23, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

And I forget what rule that was... -_-

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 20:30, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

1. That's Medieval and Renaissence Policy. The states vote on Reichstag and the Imperial Court, they have more participation they would ever have in the pre-treaty HRE. If a player enters, we will vote on him to be elector.
2. The main reason some countries entered is for influence the Empire economically by guilds. This law can and will be changed in the future, but, for now, it is a right at least I will call for.

--Galaguerra1 (talk) 20:31, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

I believe we should be allowed to mint our own currency. Bavaria is attempting to create a trade empire, and would like to use its own currency to compete against Venice and Genoa.Andr3w777 (talk) 00:13, September 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not suer I agree with your last changes. If we let all states vote, then we will have like forty non-player nations voting randomly. I maintaing that only player nations and their vassals (Electors) must be allowed to vote, and to mint coin of their own. This is the XV century, no-one spects the Emperor to know the term "equality".

Also, I'm not sure about the non-voting-for-onself rule, as most OTL emperor did vote for themselves. I don't know, I suppose I could go on with that rule, if no-one opposes.

Oh, good addition that of "man" instead of "catholic",b ut I would change it for "catholic man". --Galaguerra1 (talk) 16:34, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

I suppose that only player nations would vote, along with bohemia and savoy.

Well, the Emperor won't be voting for himself, as that would be seen as cheating if there was a tie.

Also, the Holy Roman Emperor technically didn't need to be Catholic, everyone just assumed that he was. Furthermore, I'm sure the Byzantine Emperor would be upset if he was in the empire but had no legal chance of becoming emperor anyway.

Preamble

The People of the Holy Roman Empire, as bestowed by our God and Emperor, hereby present these rights unadultured and unalieble. To ensure domestic Union and National Strength, Establish a secure Nation, and To ensure State Sovereignty. Let this document be asundered by no man, lest God Himself strike Him down. Let these unified States stand resolute for evermore.

Imperial Rights

The Emperor and his administration are granted the abilites to do these actions:

• Collect taxes for the general welfare of the people, state, and church.
• Maintain both the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy for the general defense of the nation, its beliefs, and its inhabitants.
• Create and enforce laws that do not violate the rights of the states.
• Conduct foreign diplomacy and be the face of the nation.
• Mint currency for the nation.
• Maintain Imperial Territories.

State Rights

The States of the Holy Roman Empire are able to perform the following actions:

• Maintain State Militias and Coast Guards to defend the state from attack or calamity.
• Desginate laws affecting the state and its inhabitants.
• Issue taxes seperate from Imperial taxes to provide the state's welfare.
• Elect the Emperor.

Individual Rights

Individuals may perform any or all of the following actions without fear of punishment.

• Freedom to peacefully assemble.
• Freedom to own serfs or slaves.
• Freedom for a man to arrange marriage or general welfare for one's family until his sons come of age, at which they will have their own will under law.
• More stuff may be added upon suggestions, but I have run out of ideas here...

Religion

The state religion of the Holy Roman Empire is and will eternally be Catholic Christianity. The Byzantine Empire in Morea will be able to maintain its state practice of Othodox Christianity.

Whoever wrote this should take a bow because this is an epic masterpiece and if you ask me this sounds like a real constitution and really should be followed by some nations. Take another bow. Then give yourself a pat on the back.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:31, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

That would be Gal except for the High Imperial Court and Capital Part, that was me.Andr3w777 (talk) 02:37, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

I added the parts underlined... :(

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:39, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

True Sorry about that. :)Andr3w777 (talk) 02:41, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

)

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:43, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

All of thou deserve a mighty congratulations given to thy by the Grace and Will of God. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:46, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I agree with MP. We should have a rule for only "good men" as Emperors (obviously we will not elect jews nor muslims, at least ofr the next centuries). If you agree with the "non-voting-for-oneself" par (that I still see as totally improper to the epoch) then we should vote and pass this constitution. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 03:40, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

I take issue with the non-voting of one's self. Was that not how it was done in the past? It just seems an unnecessary redundancy, everyone will get a fair shot no?Andr3w777 (talk) 15:16, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I will change it. But if we have ties becuase everyone is voting for themselves or one royal family is the emperor for generations, don't say I didn't warn you.

Theoretically in the future we could elect people of other religions and also women, but that would have to wait until at least the 1600s, at best.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 17:01, September 22, 2012 (UTC)