From Alternative History

I stole the basic idea from a Google Group soc.history.what-if thread. http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_frm/thread/39ca382a93013185/1153c0580feb791f#1153c0580feb791f

The folks on that group are usually very good but the format is such that ideas pop up and then are never seen again. It seemed to me that the answer to the "What if" depends a lot on exactly where the new islands were located. What the heck; I own a copy of Photoshop and was bored, so I looked at some maps of the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, pushed up some sea mounts and see ridges up in elevation so they became islands and made a new map. AirshipArmada 07:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, not so much butterflies as albatrosses in this case, I think. When exactly did these islands appear *there*? --Sikulu 13:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I happen to be one of the folks on that group (I call myself Analytical Engine on the google groups, if you should ever see me around there.) --Sikulu 13:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The islands drawn are where sea mounts exist in OTL, some of which come very close to the surface. Deep sea currents should be the same as in OTL but surface currents may be altered (at least effected) and so on. This could arguably effect the shape of shore lines and weather. Also fish populations would be effected. Of course, for the islands to exist at all there would need to have been greater volcanic action in areas, which would also spawn butterflies, or albatrosses, of its own. So this timeline can not be accurately mapped (as if any ALT is ever really accurately mapped!) but it still may be fun to explore.

To proceed I'll assume that currents, weather, and geography is the same as OTL with the exception of the new Islands themselves.

In OTL the Canary Islands didn't effect the course of history until relatively late, and the Azores Islands even later. The islands in this ATL factor in sooner because: the Ampere Islands are well place for early use, and the Greater Azores Islands would be discovered sooner (because they are more numerous and because the Amperes could be used as stepping stones). AirshipArmada 17:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Out of curiousity, when you say "very close to the surface" do you mean to the point that you could easily build a platform on it (such as the one built by the japanese and british during WW2) or "very close" relative to the sea bed ? If the former, could make for another althistory where a nation decide to *build* itself some "oversea colonies" --Marcpasquin 02:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The POD is: long, long ago plate tectonics and other geological forces were a little bit different so some sea mounts were a bit bigger than OTL. In OTL the Ampere Seamont raises 4000 meters but then stops 57 meters below the surface of the ocean. If it was 2% bigger we would have a nice island there. The Mid Atlantic Ridge pokes above sea level in a couple of places, in this ATL it pokes above sea level in a lot more places. I'm not interested in the geology so much as how such islands might have effected human history. AirshipArmada 20:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

When I first saw the POD the naive part of me briefly fantasized about Phoenicians in the New World. With just a moment's reflection, however, I realized that would be well neigh impossible. The mid Atlantic Islands would not be discovered until European ship technology was up to the task. The islands, as I've placed them, are too far south for the Norse to stumble across them. So we have to wait for the Basque. The Basque don't have the boats necessary until about the 12th century. In OTL they may started fishing in Newfoundland by 1372; the new islands might move this up by a century. But the Basque had a discrete culture and language, so information about the islands would not easily leak out to other peoples. Also the Basque didn't seem to be great empire builders, so all we get in this timeline are some fishing settlements which are perhaps temporary.

Serious settlement of the New World is still dependent on the course of events in Europe. Do we still have to wait for the late 15th century Spain for such a surge? Maybe Philip the Fair of France could have sponsored something at the end of the 13th century. Or maybe people fleeing the Black Death or the 100 Years War could have headed across the ocean in mid 14th century. AirshipArmada 20:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Romans

Could the Romans have managed some measure of colonisation? After all, their shipbuilding technology was only reached by Europeans again in the late Middle Ages. --Sikulu 11:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

From what I could glean, Roman rudder and sail technologies weren't really that bad, but their ships nonetheless were not very sea worthy. The Romans also had a short "sailing season" - late May to early September. They are unlikely to colonize the Greater Azores. Prevailing winds and currents in the band of the islands actually goes from west to east. If anyone were to accidentally make it to the islands then they should be able to return to Europe without much trouble. So in ancient times there may have been legends of the existence of the Azores islands but they are too difficult to reach to be of use. AirshipArmada 22:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The Ampere Islands are well placed though. Where are the Madeira Islands *there*. --Sikulu 08:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And remember: the Romans feared the ocean. They only used their ships for sailing along the coast, so if nothing else, superstition would probably have kept them from going west.

And @Sikulu: Only reached again in the late Middle Ages? Not true. Look at the Vikings. --Michael riber 16:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I meant with hulking-great-big ships. Viking technology was good, but nowhere as advanced as that of the Romans. --Sikulu 10:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be more probable that the Carthaginians set up some colonies there. It would be strange to have the Carthies island hopping their way to America. The Roman Empire was mainly focused the east and the greek areas. Iberia was taken to oppose the Carthaginians but I don't think they would have gone any further. - GiantMonkeyMan

[edit] Idirisids & Berbers

Don't forget Morroco. Easy access to North America might involve the Berbers and lead to a Muslim North America by the 13th Century.

I think the Idrisids were too early to have the technology to reach the Greater Azores but the Ampere Islands would have spent much of their history under muslim rule. Maybe the Almohads (12th & 13th centurey) could sail the Atlantic. Looks like I need to do some more reading : cool. AirshipArmada 21:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

To me, the Berber scenario seems more probable, and would also be more interesting (after all, althists aren't always completely truthful). --202.40.134.252 02:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I like this idea quite a bit... I'm new to the Althistory wiki, but I may be making my first alt soon about a Muslim colonization of North America. Atinoda 22:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cold war crises, submarines

Lets say the islands are claimed by the following countries in the 20th century

Kelvin, Greater Bermuda, and Corner Islands = USA, 51st state of the Bermuda triangle Greater Azores, Ampere islands= Spain.

They are both NATO members. these islands would be lands of these countries. There exist treaties which ban warsaw pact submarines from approaching 500 miles of a NATO member coastline, (this is to avoid a submarine killing the entire chain of command in Russia or the US and help stop a nuclear holocaust caused by less senior military leaders). these islands look close enough together that the south atlantic would be closed to Soviet Subs, but the north atlantic open to NATO subs. This could impose a sense of superiority in the NATO navies. this could be in part transfered to the NATO leaders. the opposite would be true for the Soviets. this could;

(a)Lead to the breakup of the USSR sooner due to increased pressure of nuclear surprise attack and complete NATO dominance of the atlantic.

(b)Lead to a war over the islands between NATO and the Warsaw Pact.

(c)A first strike attack by NATO against Russia, because they believe of their complete dominance of the oceans and the inability of Russia to retaliate.

(d)A Strike by Russia against the US to end once and for all the imperialist arrogance.