Why would europe have it's "oylipics" when they just went to the olympics. 184.77.214.103 22:56, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
Those were the Winter Olympics which have a completely different program from the summer games which the Europa Games more closely resembles. The Europa Games are a pre-existing idea for TTL and have been mentioned elsewhere, I just made a page for them. As for the other regional games, ideally those with greater familiarity with the countries concerned will deal with them.Tessitore 23:24, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
I like your idea, I happily will send athletes from my European Countries: Armenia , Azerbaijan , Don , Kuban , Dagestan , Kalmykia , and Ossetia !
Also ask Mr. Xeigh if he want Greece to compete, because I'm a co-caretaker but i'm not the head-caretaker. And the Nordic Union countries including Estonia, Karelia, and North Germany will not compete because they don't recognize Prussia. VENEZUELA 01:01, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
You have my blessing to have Greece compete, Venezuela; in fact you have my permission to do anything that doesn't interfere with any of my old ideas that we decide to keep and ideas the group agreed on. Mr.Xeight 01:03, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
Could someone help me by starting an article on the Americana Games that have presumably finished in Virginia?
Yankovic270 06:28, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
For what it's worth, you can freely add Croatia, Slovenia and the non-communist Karelia into the games.--Vladivostok 09:50, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
- I've added Croatia and Slovenia to the list, but I've left Karelia out since as Venezuela has pointed out the Nordic Union woVENEZUELA 22:34, August 17, 2010 (UTC)uld probably boycott the games due to their issues with Prussia. This might change depending on whether or not Georg Ludwig manages to undo his father's diplomatic damage in the meantime.Tessitore 14:25, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
I've added a list of events, let me know what you think. I mainly based it on the Commonwealth Games program, since they're on a smaller scale then the Olympics and then added a couple of Olympic sports that I thought would appeal to the countries taking part, e.g. football. I was also deliberately heavy on the athletics and swimming on the basis that when you've got a track and a pool, you may as well get maximum use out of them. Tessitore 14:08, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
Could Woodbridge apply to take part??? Verence71 19:11, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
If it has how to reach Berlin, add it to the list. VENEZUELA 19:21, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
Regarding Woodbridge, add away. Personally I'm hoping that Cleveland, Northumbria and the other OBN nations get involved (in Northumbria's case at least I think there might be a medal with their name on it, specifically for archery), so if that happens maybe they could pool their resources in the transport department, if getting there individually would be too much of a drain.Tessitore 19:36, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
Just FYI, I'll modify the Croatian and Slovenian borders, as there have been some changes after this TL's Yugoslav wars and the Venice land grab. I'll update it in about ten days, as I'm currently not able to upload images because of my slow internet connection.--Vladivostok 09:40, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
So, do you think this page is ready to graduate?Tessitore 20:57, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VENEZUELA 21:26, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
- I'll take that as a yes then. Sorry if this is a stupid question, but how do you graduate an article? Is it just a case of getting rid of the proposal banner or do you have to do something else?Tessitore 22:25, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
- yes you get rid of it! VENEZUELA 22:34, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, calm down. Tessitore 22:50, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
What region would the Rhineland Federation be part of?Vegas adict 21:29, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
Danube. VENEZUELA 22:05, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
Is Monaco, Greater Andorra or Luxembourg going to compete? JackofSpades 00:13, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
- I hope so. Tessitore 01:18, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Why have the Nordic countries been added to the participants list? I thought they were boycotting the games.Tessitore 01:18, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
I don't know I thing his creator wanted to have better relations with Prussia. VENEZUELA 01:22, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
- My mistake - they have been removed. Although I could see Sweden joining the games, the Nordic Union could have boycotted the whole competition as a whole, thus forcing Sweden to abide by it. Realismadder 10:41, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
While the Danube does run through Germany, it makes no sense to call it that.
As for the "Black" Region..... just no. Belarus, maybe, but the others, it makes no sense to have in that group with Poland.
Lordganon 06:43, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
I notice that the Nordic Union is on the map of competing nations. Is that a mistake or are they in now that they've stopped trying to pretend that Prussia doesn't exist?Tessitore 11:19, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
Even though the Nordic Union has recognized Prussia, they wouldn't have had any preparation time for the games since it was only a couple weeks prior that they recognized them, and likely would still stay out.Oerwinde 08:50, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
logo[]
Tessitore I created this logo for the 2010 Europa Games, the 1 is on a different color because its the first game!
It looks okay to me, although the Prussian eagle seems a bit tacked on. That's just if I'm being fussy though.Tessitore 22:09, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
Well I ad it because it shows that it's Prussia, but if you want I might move it or erase it. VENEZUELA 22:36, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
What about now? VENEZUELA 22:40, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
- Much better.Tessitore 00:26, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
I think we should make a page for Berlin 2010 and the Europa Games as a whole. Also here is another logo I create for the Europa Games (not one in special). VENEZUELA 23:23, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
- It might be a good idea to have a main Europa Games page, covering the topic generally, and then one for each specific game to discuss results and such. I see this page becoming too crowded otherwise. Also, here is another possible design for the logo, in case you need it. The current one is very nice though.
- Jack I like your desing, but I prefer mine, it's not because it's mine is because I just like it more. VENEZUELA 02:01, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
- Oh. I understand completely. No need to worry. I was just offering a design if needed. I too like your design better. JackofSpades 02:03, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
JackOfSpade's Design. I've also got one with the Berlin CoA on it.
Catagories[]
In the interest of avoiding excessive page length, I've divided the events up into catagories and given each one a seperate page. Please indicate what events your nation(s) will be taking part in, as it will make things a great deal easier when working out who won what.Tessitore 00:22, September 30, 2010 (UTC)
Opening Ceremony[]
Any ideas? I'm afraid I'm currently drawing a blank.Tessitore 00:22, September 30, 2010 (UTC)
Just have the same sort of thing they have at the opening of the Olympics
- Some sort of child-centred show ("They are the future of Europe" sort of thing)
- Parade of the competitors
- Speech by King of Prussia
Verence71 17:50, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
Medals[]
As part of a plan I have for Essex's future, may I request that the nation's female competitor in shooting wins the gold medal? Fegaxeyl 16:31, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
Are they a real person? (Same goes for the East Britain one)
Because if not...... I kinda doubt it.
Lordganon 09:42, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
'Fraid not, because I have no idea who real sportsmen and women are from Essex, nor do I know how to find out about them. But then again, most sportsmen and sportswomen would be under the magic age of 27 anyway, so they probably won't have existed in real life anyway. Fegaxeyl 11:32, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
In areas no effected by strikes, or sparsely effected, we can assume that they still live if they were young at the time (though given the eastern sports programs, the age bar is much lower) - which puts them about the same age as those competing in such events today.
As things go, it is those from after Doomsday that we can't use - butterflied away, if that makes sense. Exceptions for here are really good athletes, and those who were born less than 9 months after the event.
Almost every single one of the ones I added meet these criteria. The only exception should be one of the Crimean athletes.
I'll give you the one, as well as some gymnasts since their ages has always been so much lower than everyone else, since it matters for your plans, but the rest will need to be real - just research the lists of people from recent sporting events, and add those ones living in your applicable areas. And before you say it can't be done, look at all the ones I added ;)
Lordganon 11:42, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
I've looked, and I've filled in as many real people as possible - and plausible. However I still can't find a real person for the women's shooting category. Does anyone know a good database of sportspeople, where I can see their sport, age and location? Fegaxeyl 12:41, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
I searched the Team GB database. Interestingly, not only are there no Essex athletes for the three shooting competitions, none are female either. I guess I'll have to settle with a fictional person... Fegaxeyl 12:45, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
Woodbridge is concentrating on the team sports but of their individual contestants the only one who isn't totally made up is welterweight Charlie Hawkins. That's the name of my nephew who punched me on the nose the first time I ever met him (he was two months old at the time) Verence71 14:13, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
Another person who's just making everyone up here. The only one who isn't well under 27 is Andrew May (men's shooting), who's almost 28, but the backstory I have for him is that his dad died on Doomsday and his mum later remarried, so he has his step-father's surname, and he discovered a talent for marksmanship during his National Service, so the butterfly effect is firmly in effect for him. The 'real' Andrew could be anyone with that name who's the right age and born in Lancashire. Everyone else was born after Doomsday. The nearest thing there is to a real person is wrestler Joe Riley, who's surname I got from a list of famous wrestlers from Lancashire, specifically a guy callled Billy Riley who died in 1977. Joe may or may not be a relative, but since he's twenty one if he is he's a relative who doesn't exist in the OTL.Tessitore 14:45, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
Valid points, guys. However, I've found a nice list of competitors for you all:
Essex:
- Dean Macey, Decathlon, M
- James Gibson, Breaststroke (all), M
- Mark Foster, 100m Butterfly, 50/100m Freestyle, M
- Graham Hedman, 100/200/400m running, M
- Tracey Richardson, Diving, F
Southern England:
- Kelly Sotherton, heptathlon, F
- Rebecca Cooke, swimmer (400, 800, 1500 m, ind. med.), F
- Gemma Spofforth, swimmer (100/200m backstroke), F
- Group swimming medleys as well
East Britain:
- Rosalind Brett, 50/100m Freestyle and 100m medley, F
Woodbridge:
- Goldie Sayers, javelin, F
Lancaster:
- Carl Myerscough, Shot-put, M
- Helen Pattinson, Running (1,500-10,000m), F
- Jenny Meadows, 400/800m Running, F
- Francesca Halsall, swimming (50/100m freestyle, 100m butterfly), F
- The group swimming medleys as well
Celtics:
- Neil Perkins, Boxing, Welterweight, M
- Wendy Houvenaghel, Track and Road Cycling, F
- Steve Cummings, Track and Road Cycling, M
- Tom Stalker, Lightweight boxing, M
- Julie Anne Forrester, Track Cycling, F
- Stephen Parry, (Butterfly, Backstroke, 200m freestyle, ind. medley), M
- Rachel Heal, Track/Road cycling, F
- Gregor Tait, Backstroke/Individual Medley, M
- Dale Garland, Decathlon/400m Hurdles, M
- Jonathan Bellis, Track/Road cycling, M
- Mark Cavendish, Track/Road cycling, M
- Peter Kennaugh, Track/Road cycling, M
- Tim Kennaugh, Track/Road cycling, M
- Andrew Bree, Breaststroke, M
- Wendy Houvenaghel, Track cycling, F
- Chris Baillie, 110m hurdles, M
- James McCallum, Track/Road Cycling, M
- Evan Oliphant, Road cycling, M
Northumbria:
- Shirley Webb, Hammer Throw, F
Cleveland:
- Chris Tomlinson, Long Jump, M
- Chris Newton, Road/Track cycling, M
- David Daniell, Track Cycling, M
- Katy Livingston, Fencing, F
- Joanne Jackson, swimming (400/800m freestyle), F
- The group swimming medleys as well
Obviously, short in a few categories - will need to be rectified, where making up names, or even people you know comes in. But you guys aren't quite as devoid of people as you think ;)
Note that many of these were from articles on the commonwealth games.
Lordganon 05:10, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the list LordG, I've made a few adjustments. Except for aquatics. I'm trying to limit sports competed in to those which you would expect to find useful in a post-apocalyptic society - running, mostly. Essex has no aquatic athletes because there has never been the need, nor the desire, for swimming pools. Fegaxeyl 07:00, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
Understandable, though I'd keep at least one of them - call it from military training or something - in their event. Hard to pass all that talent up.
Lordganon 10:26, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
True. I was thinkign that, just because they can't be the best in their OTL sports, there's no reason why they can't be the best in their ATL. Fegaxeyl 14:58, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
My personal justification for swimming pools is that since Lancashire has quite a few of them, it'd make sense for at least a few to be in use for recreational and/or learning to swim purposes. After all, even in a post-apocalyptic society people need to have fun occasionally otherwise they'll go nuts. But then Lancaster is a fair bit more stable and prosperous then Essex.Tessitore 16:17, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
Its much easier to explain it for Southern England. It is based on an Island after allVegas adict 17:27, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
Too late?[]
Is it too late to add Luxembourg to the list of competitors? I can't imagine them staying away; they've made such an effort to reintigrate themselves in the last year or so. Same goes for some of the states of France. Benkarnell 14:00, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
- No, it's not too late. You can add Luxembourg. Be quick about it though, we're going to have to start awarding medals soon.Tessitore 15:42, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
question[]
How is all this being decided, exactly? As Luxembourg's caretaker do I need to submit the names of athletes? And what happened to all the French nations? You'd think they'd be the first in line for an Olympic event. Benkarnell 04:03, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
I've been correlating otl performance for the athletes into rankings. I've also added Luxembourg athletes for you.
Well, none of the caretakers of the French nations offered up their nations, so none were added. Besides, only one of them - Monaco - is likely stable enough to do compete anyway. Too late to add them now too.
Lordganon 04:12, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
- OK, thanks for that. But a couple of the French nations are among Europe's most stable. Borgogne-Franche Comte participated in the Winter Games last February, and Auvergne has been diplomatically active around the world in an effort to start a movement toward a reunified France. No retconning is possible? This is a history project, after all. It's not as though we're role playing. Benkarnell 04:15, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
- At this point, it would be easier if we didn't - look at all the data so far. Besides, they'd have almost no athletes anyway. I remember from looking through the French athletes for the Celtic Alliance, Alpine Confederation, and Luxembourg that there would be a couple from Auvergne, but none from Borgogne. And, Louis hasn't said a word either way. Lordganon 04:29, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
- No, I understand the inconvenience - but the fact that one person goes inactive shouldn't end up affecting the history, is what I'm saying. And IMO lots of the athletes would be made-up fictional people anyway. All the athletes 26 years old and younger, that is. Benkarnell 04:31, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Aye, but with this there needed to be permission, etc. We've ended up going with real athletes for the most part, even a fair number younger than that in some areas, like Ireland, that were stable. Avoid arguing about which fictional person would win such an event. Lordganon 04:42, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Hm, I guess it's really too late to raise an objection now, but I'm very uncomfortable with that. Even in Ireland there was a lot of disruption - people's marriage plans and sex lives would certainly have been disrupted, there was an influx of Britons who would probably have intermarried, etc. And in such a different world with fewer luxuries, the people who were kids in the 80s would lead very different lives and may or may not have pursued athletics. ... I probably should just butt out, since you've already put in so, so much work. I guess that's how I'd advocate handling sports in the future: just make up names and decide how strong they are. Benkarnell 20:48, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Not happy with it myself, but it's saved all of us arguing over the results - and we both know it would have happened, repeatedly. At least with this way, the otl results largely speak for themselves and can determine the results. Though, at any level higher than this, it'll have to be by country only. Truthfully, as it stands right now, I'm surprised we haven't argues over something yet. Lordganon 03:28, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
In the case of fictional ones the fairest way to do it would be to use a die roller and have the top 3 scores be medal winners.Oerwinde 08:35, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, the British authors that added them have said they believe their guys would largely come out on the bottom of their events, which is basically the idea I've been going with. Lordganon 08:40, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
- Ganon, you make a good point about the arguments. As much as I like to think we're all mostly concerned with making hte timeline better and better, I have to admit that some people would just end up insisting that "their" athletes be the best. ... I like Oerwinde's solution involving dice rolls. The way we handled the Winter Games worked out all right, to: we first decided which countries were most likely to be represented at the top level, and then filled in the names. Some names were real, others were made up. (At least I know that I made up a few of them. I can't speak for SouthWriter, who IIRC filled in the scores for the majority of the sports.) [EDIT] I see that SW didn't actually fill in names. OK, my point is that I made some names up. There is no real Swiss ski jumper named "Heinrich Lehner", for example.
- So, if we give this kind of full treatment to the other regional Games this year (there are others, aren't there?) I would be a big advocate of using dice or random numbers to help us get the results - chosen from a pool of logical contenders, obviously. French Guyana isn't going to sweep the medals in South America, obviously. Benkarnell 12:44, October 15, 2010 (UTC)
Results[]
As you guys have no doubt been aware, I've been using a random number generator and otl performance to hand out medals. I have finally completed this, and encourage a look. I also listed them on the page here, in the table, but won't organize it for now.
Overall, it looks good to me. Nations that should come out ahead have, for the most part, and vice-versa.
However, largely because of the swimmers, Slovenia has ended up with an insane amount of medals. And for some reason, Prussia has less medals than they should have, in my opinion.
We could let it stand, but I'd rather not. Will involve adding more competitors, largely Prussian, to the swimming events, but it'll get fixed up. Would also mean several other countries increase in their counts slightly as well that are a bit low, with the most needy one being Croatia.
Lordganon 14:39, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
Found a couple of Prussian and Croatian swimmers, which fixes the issue somewhat. Slovenia no longer has the most medals, Croatia has a much better number, and Prussia has increased a little, though not as much as I would've liked. Works for me now though.
Overall, the Celtic Alliance has the most medals, with 39. Next are Slovenia and the Alpine Confederation at 37 each. The Celts also have the most golds, 13, with the next two being the Alpines and Greeks with 12.
Lordganon 10:37, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
I didn't expect Lancaster to get quite so many medals, it's not that big a country after all. On the other hand, it's not an implausible number, more like the result of them being lucky. On the other hand, I can see there being a fair bit of gloating over the fact that they got more medals then Cleveland.Tessitore 14:21, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
Like Slovenia, I consider that largely a result of very good swimmers. With Cleveland, you've also got a nice population advantage too, remember ;)
Lordganon 14:47, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
True. Unfortunately it's a population advantage that I was unaware of and now that I am aware of it it seems utterly unrealistic. After all, Lancaster is a lot smaller and got hit with quite a lot of fallout. *sigh*Tessitore 22:15, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
Ganon, I am really sorry for bringing this up just now, but I've been on a small hiatus, so I haven't had the time to check up the winners of the Games. There are a few Croatian swimmers that would have had a fair shot in the competition, like Duje Draganja or Gordan Kožulj (who may be a little to old to compete, however). Also, I find it hard to believe that Woodbridge, or any team from Britain for that matter, would be able to win anything in a competitive sport post-DD. Mainly, my concerned are for the team sports. Woodbridge received a silver medal in basketball, the Duchy of Lancaster received a silver medal in women's and a bronze in men's football, while Cleveland got the gold? There are other countries that I find unlikely to win as well, mainly from other, hard hit areas.
My main concern is that a low population of under a quarter of a million people in a hard hit area like Britain just doesn't have the means to support or properly train their athletes. The OTL surviving basketball, football, handball, water polo players etc. would be butchers, bakers, shoemakers, not athletes (at least not professional ones). Their teams would somewhat mimic the athletic prowess of OTL athletes from Andorra or Malta.
--Vladivostok 21:12, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
I did not include Gordon due to age, true enough. As for Duje, going by what the Croatia, and other area articles, said, I assumed that the city of Split that they are from was in a war zone, or nearly so. (Croatia says Dalmatia was nearly cut in two, so...)
As for the others, Woodbridge is a nation based on a pair of airbases, and has a large American element to it. Ver~ figured that this would mean they'd be strong at basketball, and I agreed. (As a norm, European nations are not really good at basketball)
Cleveland, as shown at the World Cup, is actually very good at football. And Lancaster has more people in it than they do, actually - have a look - and a similar number of football players.
In the team events I did consider the locations of such athletes, and I know it can only be taken with a grain of salt. But the most populous nations left in Europe have historically been very bad at the majority of these events, and even the presence of Berlin being intact doesn't help the Prussian cause much.
But, all of these smaller nations have national leagues in these events. They may only be weekend athletes, but that's the case in all these countries - they may be bakers, etc. in the week, but they can still compete on the weekends. Andorra, even atl, is far, far smaller than any of these nations, and Malta, despite their love of soccer, dont really play it - heck, they even cheer for Italy or England when they play instead of the Maltese team! But the love of the sport in these other areas should carry over, with these areas having teams only slightly worse then they would otl.
Lordganon 21:49, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
Well, yes there was fighting there but he was young and could have survived, he would have been around the age of six while the war ended. I see your point in the discussion and respect the results in general, but I have to be honest and say that I'm not 100% convinced. I mean,the Lancaster article states that there are around 215,000 people living there, with Woodbridge and Cleveland having 100,000 citizens each. And I disagreed with Cleveland's surprising success at the World Cup as well. I mean, is there any instance in world history where a country the size of the ones mentioned that has won anything of significance in any major competition?--Vladivostok 22:12, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
There's been a few otl that have come close, and with the elimination of so many people, these countries, especially on this scale of event, would hold a fighting chance.
When I first wrote the results, Lancaster actually held a population close to 715,000 - he dropped it much more than I thought he would, but it should still hold.
I did figure he could have lived, but I've erred largely on the side of caution in that regard.
Lordganon 22:21, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
Well, it is better to be on the safe side regarding Duje. Glad you kept Blanka Vlašić, though. I never said that they wouldn't have some medals going for them, crazier things have happened, I'm just surprised by the quantity.--Vladivostok 22:27, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
Regarding Lancaster's population reduction, I have to admit that that was mainly due to the original figure being the result of a mathmatical error on my part. I also realised that given the amount of fallout that would've hit the large central Lancashire mill towns, the population would've really taken a hammering. As for the number of medals they got, it is a bit unlikely but not too implausible if you allow for blind luck and other factors. For example the two golds for archery are down to Lancaster using military archers and since it takes years to get really good at archery I can see people being encouraged to take it up as kids, particuarly if their parents were archers. The two competitors have probably been using a bow since primary school, if not earlier. If we manage to keep this ATL going for long enough, then next time the Europa Games roll around I'll have Lancaster do worse and continue to do so for subsequent games. After all, flukes do happen and when all's said having a lucky fluke on your first attempt tends to be rather annoying in future. Plus I'm planning on adding a bit on the games in the Sport section of the Lancaster article which might explain a couple of things.Tessitore 20:09, December 26, 2010 (UTC)