Talk: 1983: Doomsday/Misc 1

Mythbusters?

Just out of Curiosity, what happened to the Mythbusters cast? Jamie Hyneman might be alive in Superior. Is it a Myth Confirmed or Busted on Savage, Bellechi, Byron and Imahara surviving Doomsday? And if so, s it possible that they could make a Doomsday version of Mythbusters. With all the survivors of the event there are bound to be many, many DD-related myths to test. --Yankovic270 00:12, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Hello? Anyone? --Yankovic270 16:44, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

I could imagine something alike being existent, espcially in Commonwealth Television...!! But when did mythbusters be estabishled respectively what was the cast´s then work or relation to TV?--Xi'Reney 19:46, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

disabled sport

any ideas --Owen1983 18:30, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

New TL

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline(Evil_Empire) Fellas I request you all to leave suggestions and all improvements are welcome MC Prank 16:06, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Nuclear Holocaust Bibliography ..Amazing collection

foun in wikipedia a potentially interesting: Nuclear Holocaust Bibliography... Have a look ... Did anyone see this before?? Anybody knows who is teh author of this? Might be something useful... :)!!--Xi'Reney 21:54, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Just going through letter "a" takes me a long time... This is definitely an amazing collection which took a long time to write...Fascinating...--Xi'Reney 22:02, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Continued this sunday on letters c,d and e... took me about 2 hours, with looking up some of the books/stories mentioned. Just can recommend this again !--Xi'Reney 20:42, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I read a few pages on that site, Xi'Reney. Amazing resource. I recommend Warday by Streiber. I don't necessarily agree with his premises, but it probably accurately reflects the effects of even a limited nuclear war on the U.S.--BrianD 22:34, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Cricket

Cricket would be popular in the Indo-Australian sphere at least and also in New Britain. It is the national sport of Australia, so I think it has a chance of retaining its earlier position.--MC Prank 15:58, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Revitalising idea: 1983: Doomsday TL in Videogames?

As I finally aquired a version of Supreme Ruler 2020 I wanted to revive a discussion we head breifely a time ago.. Does anybody have an idea to work out a plausible and workable realisation of the 1983: Doomsday TL into a suitable videogame? By building a mod, a scenario etc.? I am no computer geek so I would have had more ideas yet as this keeps me fascinating... to imagine interacting in the world of 1983: Doomsday...

Some possibilities I would see:

• Civilization IV: here I even started creating a world scenario mirroring the World in 2008 of 1983 DD, but it was when so many things were not described yet so I kind of let it go down the drain...also because of the details of CivIV were at that point overwhelming...just do have no access to it right now...
• Supreme Ruler 2020: tentativly started to find sth. to do it with this game as it would be the closest plausible idea I can imagine...but there is no map editor/easy scenario editor and the modding by editing files is scary for me...
• Superpower 2: fairly unuseful as far as I know the game...only for maybe a Doomsday simulation I could imagine

Does anybody have any ideas of this? Or anywhere someone tried this before? Il bethisad or so? Maybe some Timelines from this wiki have been used somewhere? --Xi'Reney 19:47, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

It sounds good in principle... but modding a game is a lot of work. I've tried modding Civ 4 before, I created a "Canada" faction... but this is much more complex of course. It would be a project spanning several months as far as I can tell... perhaps even a year. Also there is the question of which countries to add as factions. Technologies would be tricky as well... I'd assume that the game would progress in months from September 1983. Since technology isn't improving at a very fast rate in this TL, technology would be sort of useless. We could replace it with something else I suppose... though what I don't know. Culture would also be problematic. In Civ 4, culture determines control over the surrounding regions, however that doesn't translate well into this TL. So we could replace culture with, say, self-sufficiency? Or something like that. Anyway, those are my ideas. Those other games I haven't heard of. --DarthEinstein 20:35, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

I think the best way to achieve the territorial extent and smaller nations etc. would be to mod Hearts of Iron 3. Its a WWII game, but heavily modable. The game is super complex though.--Oerwinde 22:14, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

my idea would be A GTA game GTA Arostook were you play a drug dealer in a post DD city--Owen1983 01:07, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

Economic question - which currency has replaced the US dollar?

Discussion moved to Talk:Economy.

Goodbye for now

Well guys another semester at law school is nearing its end, which means I have law school finals to study for. My entire grade is based on these tests so you can probably understand how important these next few weeks will be for me. Sadly I will be disappearing from the Wiki beginning today. I might drop by just to see what has been written recently, but I won’t be editing much if at all. My last final is on the 18th, but I plan to get stinking drunk that day so I probably won’t make my triumphant return until the weekend. So happy editing to everyone and I will see you again soon. Mitro 19:09, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Automobile production

i was reading thru the Republic of Superior (1983: Doomsday) article I noticed Macknaw Moters And I would like to create an article becuse i can see Rolls Royce been established in New Britain perhaps Saab in the Nordic Union and Mercades BMW Mesedes in Nueues Deutschland any ideas--Owen1983 17:26, November 26, 2009 (UTC)--Owen1983 17:32, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Civilian automobiles in Virginia, if there are still being produced, would be patterned after the WWII-era military Jeep,or the German Kubelwagen (effectively the German Jeep. Either of these or, like the Thompson tank, a fusion of the two. --Yankovic270 17:38, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

FIAT factory is big and older in Argentina (real world), and i think wolsvages too in Brazil--Fero 17:43, November 26, 2009 (UTC) Fiat company outside Italy--Fero 18:09, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

I really find it hard to believe that anywhere outside of the southern hemisphere is producing running automobiles. My estimation of Utah (hardly hit and mostly civilized) and France (Heavy hit and hardly civilized) they are both reverted to horse and buggy, if that, aside the military, and even then, they're in a pickle to get replacement parts. Louisiannan

I think a proirity would be buildig factories and mas producing pre doomsday modals propebly powered by metahane becuse oil is not thet accessible but i thing agricural needs would be a priority--Owen1983 22:52, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Eve if the Virginians are producing automobiles, I think the situation would revert to the time before Henry Ford and the assembly line. That, of course, would mean that the automobile in Virginia, despite its plain, militaristic design, would once again be a luxury only afforded by the VIPs of Virginian society. That means government officials, Generals of the Virginian Army, and the CEOs of the newly formed privately owned (though publically traded) companies. Yankovic270 20:39, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Were is louisenan

were is Louis I haven't seen him round here --Owen1983 17:48, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Look at the topic directly above this one. He responded to a topic you created yesterday. Mitro 17:50, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

thanks mat --Owen1983 18:10, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

New Timeline Proposal

I had an idea. This timeline is truely fantastic. This is due to the creativity and imagination of the people who made this timeline. Yet it isn't too mentalist because it is bound by common sense. So I request the assisstance of you chaps for a timeline I made up a few months back. Its called Fifth Anglo-American War and I hope you have a look so it can be equally excellent. And also left to my own devices I'm going to make a bish of it. Bob 21:54, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Wikibreak announcement

For a variety of reasons, I'm not going to be very active on this site for a little while. Part of it is that for Christmas I'm working in a shop instead of in classrooms, so I don't have access to computers in the middle of the day. But I'm also getting a little frustrated with certain aspects of 83dd and feel it's time to take a breather. This probably won't be as long as my last (unannounced) absence, essentially August-September... maybe five months is just the limit of my Internet attention span. I'll respond to any posts on my own talk page. All I ask is that everyone please, please do not leave Mitro to do all the archiving. He's busy too, and this page can get quite big. Merry Christmas!  :) Benkarnell 22:44, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

So are you still on a wikibreak? Mitro 00:05, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

It looks like I'm back.  :) And not coincidentally, yesterday was my last day working at the mall. Benkarnell 00:10, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Doomsday on Facebook

For all of those who use Facebook, I created a facebook group for Doomsday: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=215628041113

Hopefully it will help atract some new contributors! Mitro 19:58, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Merry Christmas, everyone!--HAD 13:20, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

were we live we have 3 days to go but merry christmas

Wishing everyone who reads this a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Or put differently: 'Zoalig Kerstmis en veul heil en zeg'n int Neijjoar!' --Karsten vK (talk) 16:09, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Putting it differently again: 'ko salci la krismys. gleki .e ninyna'a gleki' (I'm just learning this language; I may have made a mistake... but Merry Christmas anyway!) --DarthEinstein 17:49, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Merry Christmas everyone, I'm off for a day of eating and drinking and I will see you all again on Sunday (I'll need Saturday to sober up). Mitro 19:08, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Happy new year!!!

Happy new year, everyone!--HAD 18:04, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Grammar nazism in Superior news item

I think it should correctly be "halls of fame", not "hall of fames". Benkarnell 05:27, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

shouldn't is be "hall of fame"? that what we say where i'm from. --HAD 12:14, January 10, 2010 (UTC) I agree whith HAD on this one Halls of theme doesnt make sence--Owen1983 15:42, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ben's right on this one because the item is referring to more than one hall of fame; "hall of fames" was a typo on my part.--BrianD 16:28, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

I agree the s should be removed, but what I would like to know is how does an extra "s" on "fame" equate to nazism?--GOPZACK 17:08, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

thanks for enlightening me, Brian. also, i believe the "nazisim" reference is an attempt at humour. am i right? --HAD 19:33, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, sorry: in the US (or at least my region) "grammar nazi" is a well understood term for somebody who is always correcting other people's grammar. Benkarnell 22:46, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

me, im from The Uk, where Nazism references are never used in normal conversation. that gives me an idea. you know peoplemake thos Nazi/holocaust Jokes? i wonder if they'll be jokes about doomsday? --HAD 11:04, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

I don't doubt for a minute that there will be Doomsday jokes. Every time that there is some big disaster jokes about it start apprearing within 2 or 3 days. Obviously with something like Doomsday it will take a lot longer for the jokes to appear, but appear they will Verence71 20:02, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

Help!!! I want to make some new pages.

My first page was set up for me. How do I start a new page?

I went to "How to make articles" but it says to click "edit" and then put the name of the article in the [[ ]]. The format advice is not very good, or at least I can't follow it.

How do I get an article into the "1983: Doomsday" ATL page? I'm going over to the facebook page and post a request for help as well! --SouthWriter 01:06, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

On the top left-hand side of the page, where you see the search bar and the menu, you should see a link titled Create a New Page (directly underneath Community). Click on the link. A new page will appear, titled Start New Article. You'll see boxes for Title, and Text. Name your article in the Title field, but make sure you put (1983: Doomsday) after the article. For example: Evil Empire of Duke (1983: Doomsday). In the text field, you'll write your article. After you save it, make sure you copy the URL of the new article, and make note of it here on the main talk page, in the list of proposed articles. --BrianD 01:24, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

And - make sure you type (or copy) Template:, then ddprop, then into the first line of your article (without the spaces - when I typed it in the first time, the proposal box showed up. I want you to take note of the coding); this marks it as a proposal. --BrianD 01:25, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll have it up in no time. I'll drop a note here when I do. This is just an info page about the charismatic African American that converts to Islam and takes over Anderson. I googled for a picture of a black male, and then altered it so that it only resembles the original (it sort of looks like a friend of mine, actually). I wrote the bio earlier so its just a matter of cut and paste. --SouthWriter 01:35, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

1983: Doomsday and Testament

Was looking around Wikipedia and I came upon this article: Testament (film). Its a nuclear holocaust film released (strangely enough) in 1983 (a few months after the POD of this TL). Though I haven't seen the film itself, after reading the plot summary I can't help but notice a lot of similarities between the film and this TL. Especially how surprising the nuclear attack was, there weren't any military buildups or wars going on. Just thought you might be interested. Mitro 17:29, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

I did see the film, and it was as depressing as The Day After was. I believe you can find clips on YouTube.BrianD 21:08, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

I am considering writting an article on Hunter S. Tompson, but first I need to know if he's alive. Riley.Konner 09:47, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

I looked Hunter Thompson up, and he committed suicide on February 20, 2005. He was apparently living near Woody Creek, Colorado, near Aspen in 1983. He went to Granada to cover the unrest and "invasion" in late 1983 (after DD). Check with the time line and such to see what the situation was in and around Aspen in September of 1983. Thompson was a recluse by then, but began to write again for Playboy and the San Francisco Examiner, both of which would be either defunct or unreachable from a secluded writer for years to come. It is possible that Thompson could have been a player in local politics in the region -- IF Woody Creek survived Doomsday.SouthWriter 18:31, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Utah and Oil

Utah may actually enter the Doomsday world with working oil industry. Its not there now, but in 1983 there was an oil refinery in roosevelt, 150+ miles east and two major mountain ranges away (one running north-south, the other East west) from the nearest nuke. in OTL the refinery went bankrupt because of the low quality of the oil. in this TTL, I could see it becoming a major industry, and perhaps with people going to the effort to conquer the oil shale--- which was possible in 1983, but not economically feasible. with a low source of oil and a large amount of machinary that would become availible with more fuel, the post DD-Industry might be started, though it appears that all of Utah's neighbor's except Dinetah already have oil (west texas, NAU). Desert viking (this was just recently added to the archives by DV, moved here by me to create discussion, Mitro 05:17, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

There is oil capacity out toward vernal, and I would presume that whatever could be salvaged of the refineries due north of the SLC Int'l airport were salvaged and moved south toward the new capital and population centers. I don't know how much the oil-shale and oil-sands will have been tapped just yet, but I would imagine that if they haven't been working on it since the turn of the millenium, they're just about there at this point. I don't know that the oil will be going outside of Utah and Dinetah, especially not to the NAU with the ongoing Idaho/Wyoming border dispute, but I could see it starting to trickle over to West Texas with the new trade agreements. I also don't see Utah importing oil - with the collectivization that took place following DD, it's most likely going to be government run cars that have oil, and coal-powered trains are likely the norm, since there are huge coal deposits in Carbon County (where it gets the name). Louisiannan 19:26, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

Empire of Greater Germania

Daeth to bigs brothers, GemrMania uber alles yalls, ANarhcy, Anaekcy, Oceansia sucks!

Haha, sorry but couldn't help myself. Anyway, do you remember this troll we had a few months back? I was wondering what you guys would think if I took his "proposal" and turned it into a science fiction book/series published in the Doomsday universe? Mitro 20:48, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

possibly the best idea involving the worst idea ever to come out of this. how about having a WW4 involving the USSR, the Empire, The CANZ and the SAC, with The ADC as well. and the NAU Could fight the "war of american unification", like OTL Prussia did. HAD 20:59, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Germany has to rule all of Europe, with pomp and circumstance and an iron fist. There also have to be secret military bases hidden under rubble or in out of the way places (like Siberia or Yellowstone National Park) with super-advanced technology, and cloning, so the Germans can repopulate the world quickly.BrianD 21:36, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Yikes, I forgot about that conversation. A lot of you need lessons on how to Not Feed the Trolls. This guy was taking everyone for a ride, I think. Benkarnell 21:39, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

The first I thought was "Oh this guy's back, I never got to have my fun with him...". But as long as we're getting propaganda novels, I'd like to include a "Despotate of Byzantium" that pushed the Turks out of Anatolia, and into someplace bad... like Persia, and now rules an empire from Morocco to Iraq, Somalia to Bosnia to be included :D

I'm only half-joking too...

Mr.Xeight 00:03, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

as long as the french get bombed, i'll be happy! :)LOL!?!--HAD 16:02, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Nuclear Bomb Simulation

I came across this site today I don't know it's accuracy but it does give a rough idea of what would happen in the vicinity such as the pressure, the fallout and overall destruction. It may be useful to see just how bad the damage was. http://www.carloslabs.com/node/20 --GOPZACK 18:01, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

I've been using it for quite a while. I added it to the Externals(1983: Doomsday) page a while back, but I don't know how many people check it.Oerwinde 18:48, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Reviews of 1983: Doomsday

You find people discussing 1983: Doomsday in the strangest of places: http://www.golemlabs.com/community/showthread.php?p=413704. Mitro 02:20, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that's exciting! I'm very glad they have good things to say. How cool would it be to have someone else create an RPG based on our work? Benkarnell 12:18, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

I have seen people discuss the same thing on a Civ fan forum. Mitro 15:19, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm just thrilled they like the Siberia I created =). I personally think HOI 2 would be a better place to make the mod, but the same problem would arise that these guys discuss: What about the unclaimed land? I'd personally reduce it to probably being a rebel faction.--Vladivostok 19:11, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Thats probably why Civilization would be better. Just leave the lands empty or stick in some barbarians to be stand ins for all of the brigands, nomands, and raiders that haunt the blank areas of DD landscape. Mitro 23:10, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that thought did cross my mind, but if we are talking about Civ 4, it wouldn't be very realistic border wise. If I remember correctly, the borders expand as your cultural infulence expands around the city, right? That would make smaller nations huge after a couple of turns, unless there is no culture to begin with. Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't played the game in a very long time. Oh, and could you provide a link to that Civ discussion? I'd really like to see what they've come up with.--Vladivostok 10:45, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

haven't we had this conversation before?HAD 11:10, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Square Leg

Found a potentially useful article on Wikipedia. Its about a British home defense exercise done in 1980 that assessed the effects of a Soviet nuclear attack. Its called Square Leg and it even comes with a handy danady little map about potential targets. There are some criticisms of the exercise but this still may be useful in helping figure out how the UK fared. Mitro 20:05, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Two articles

Found some useful articles. The first is a proposed list of primary, secondary and tertiary targets in the US: http://www.survivalring.org/cd-targets.php.

The other talks about the number of targets US missiles are pointing at and the nations they are in: http://www.cdi.org/issues/proliferation/blairnytimes6.12.00.html. It was written in 2000 though, but from what the article says the number of potential targets has actually increased since the end of the Cold War. Mitro 21:06, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Chile earthquake

Someone posted an item about today's OTL Chile earthquake on the NewsHour page that I rewrote. Who's responsible for Chile, and what are your ideas going forward for the country TTL? Also, Benkarnell, did you have any thoughts about Hawaii, seeing as the Big Island is going to take the biggest hit from the tsunami?BrianD 19:44, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

I wrote the initial news headline and I guess I am responsible for Chile as well. I'm waiting for some more info on the Chile article before seeing what I am going to write. I don't expect any major geopolitical shifts. No doubt in this ATL Chile would have a better recovery than Haiti in this ATL is having. Of course I'm not expert on Chile so I would accept any help that is offered. Mitro 20:21, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Woomera Test Range

I checked out if Australia had any sort of rocket base which could serve as their centre for space exploration and I came across this. The Woomera Test Range. Do you think it would have a high priority? If this was discussed before, I'm sorry for bringing it up again.--Vladivostok 18:50, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Satellite capabilities

I saw the news item on the USSR launching a satellite into space a few days back TTL. Is the USSR the only nation in TTL with satellite capabilities? Am I wrong to assume that the SAC and ANZC would have satellites (military and civilian) in space as well? What about Mexico, or Japan, or Celtic Alliance?BrianD 02:11, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

I do think they have satellites, it's just that no one is writing about that. And GLONASS is a joint venture under the sponsorship of the LoN. So, the ANZC and SAC definitely have space programs. But the latter three... I highly doubt it. Japan is not being expanded upon at the moment, Mexico is your domain so everything goes and I just can't see the Celtic Alliance concentrating on this alone. However, there is a joint ADC space program.--Vladivostok 11:15, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps ANZC helped the Celtic Alliance by launching a communications satellite or two...and did the same for Mexico (or, perhaps, it was Brazil who helped launch the Mexican satellites)?BrianD 20:08, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

Well, that would certainly be a possibility. I thought you meant some other rocket bases located outside of the ANZC or Guayana. But sending satellites for someone else... I don't see any harm in that, any nation operating the existing bases could send satellites for nation who have enough money for it to happen. I was thinking on making an article for the ANZC base, as you can see in the Woomera question I brought up. But, since Australia is considered to be no big threat, I guess it is safe to say that the site survived.--Vladivostok 20:35, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

British Channel 4 documentary with themes relevant to 1983: Doomsday

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1630001170436508560&hl=en# BrianD 20:08, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

Jackson, Tennessee

Are we to assume that Jackson was a lot smaller in 1983 and that the Gilmore of OTL was an outlying village that somehow was abandoned for the safety of a centralized population in that smaller town that has not grown in 26 years? Today, Gilmore is a community that shows up as surrounded by the city limits of Jackson. It seems to be of about at most 50 houses. Without historical records, I have to assume the growth records of Jackson to be about like those of the state. If that is so, the town would have a population in 1983 of around 45,700. After Doomsday, that would have swollen by around 400,000 as survivors from the Memphis area. Frankfort couldn't handle it, but it looks like somehow Jackson did. If anything, there must have been a grand expansion of the town (even assuming half of the new population, and some of its own, died). If even a new population of 200,000 in 1990 increased at 1% for 20 years, there would be a population of 240,000 there today in the ALT.

Yes, gentlemen, I have way too much time on my hands. If anyone wishes to further expand on this news item, I hope they do some research. I seem compelled to set this time line on the right path. I have articles of my own I need to develope. SouthWriter 19:49, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

I would ask that you, somewhere on the main talk page, develop your objections to each of the article you see here and detail the work that we will need to do in order to meet the standards that you apparently believe have yet to be met. I would also invite you to take up your concerns directly with the editors who oversee this wiki - specificially, Xi'Reney, Benkarnell and Mitro.

I will also say this, and I believe I would speak for the entire wiki: constructive criticism is fine. But I don't come here to get nitpicked. You also should understand that this is a wiki where decisions are ultimately made by consensus - which means that not only may your suggestions get heard and implemented, they may also get heard and rejected. BrianD 20:03, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

This is the main talk page, and Jackson was introduced on the main news page. I took it up as a challenge because it was introduced without discussion as a new survivor state. And I always try to be constructive in my remarks. I don't wish to be "nit-picky," but I would think that the storylines should seek accuracy. That is what I have seen in all the discussions that I have followed. I would not be offended if my suggestions are rejected. In fact I have asked for suggestions toward the articles I have developed, but have received very little input. I never attempt to alter any article someone else has created past minor edits of spelling or an occasional word choice. I apologize for my attention to detail. It is probably the reason I do not get much fiction completed. The remark above about doing some research was not meant to be a slam against anyone's article. It was only to say that I will not be doing the research.  :-(

SouthWriter 20:44, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. I want to be charitable in my remarks, and I hope I have not come across as arrogant or uncharitable in any way. I picked Gilmore because I had the group traveling by foot along I-40, and also because while Gilmore is a suburb in OTL, it may or may not be the same in a world where transportation is either by foot or by horse. I probably screwed up by saying the former town of Gilmore...I will revise the item now.BrianD 19:39, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Whose "bright" idea was it to have the Jacksonians kick the oh-so-generous Virginians out of town? Whoever did it undoubtably doomed Jackson to a humiliating defeat and military occupation. But I have to thank you. In the years since the Virginian Republic reunited West Virginia they have not had the chance to really flex their military muscle. The incident gave Virginia the perfect reason to make an example of Jackson. The only outcome I see happening is Jackson being occupied and its government, specifically the mayor, facing a firing squad.

Yankovic270 19:13, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Mine :) Seriously, in the timeline, it's the rogue government that's held the city in a vice grip for the last 15 years or so. So much so that the people would definitely welcome Virginia and Kentucky as liberators...but Virginia and Kentucky might find themselves fighting an enemy that is just as determined to hold its ground and fight off the invaders (like the Taliban against the Soviets). There really are a lot of unknowns about Jackson TTL...I would propose it a rogue, isolationist state that is a lot more dangerous than it might seem to be. BrianD 19:39, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

I also wanted to create a scenario where Virginia would be able to look like the good guys, and give Yank an opportunity to show everyone how VIrginia isn't a crazed, rogue state itself...it really does want to help its neighbors. BrianD 19:44, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

The purpose of the contingent they evicted was to establish diplomatic contact and help the region's economic restoration. When they are kicked out they are seriously offended. They see that as an act of war, and want to subdue Jackson before they cause any more trouble in their restoration of the state of Tennessee. Besides the Virginians have done so much to try and improve their reputation, only for the League of Nations to rudely ignore their titanic efforts. Anyway, who is the leader of Jackson? I cannot see anyone named "Jerry Gist" at the head of a rogue government.

Yankovic270 19:58, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Yank, this is really showing a new, refined, Virginian Republic! Declaring war on a micro-nation just because they don't want you around?!! Well, they did take your weapons, but was there any evidence of corruption or danger of their invading other settlements in the area? I was meaning to comment on the co-operation of Virginia with little city-state Portland as the "rightful owner" of the rest of Tennessee. What about East Tennessee? That survivor state is never going to join with a Virginia that wants to "take over" land ruled for twenty-five years by otherwise peaceful folk. The League of nations is right, Virginia is still too much of a loose cannon. I propose, this calls for an alliance of the Appalacian bloc - East Tennessee, Blue Ridge, and Piedmont - to assure that the Dixie Alliance does not take over their peaceful states.

Brian, is there much evidence that their has been an "iron grip" on the people as to want deliverance? You mention that there might be a rogue government - but over how many people, and by what means? Being the receptor city for so many survivors from the Memphis metro area, I'd think there is quite a back story here. SouthWriter 21:02, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

I have no issue per se with the Dixie Alliance, or with Yank or Zack (or South, for that matter). That's not just my countries speaking, it's my personal opinion. East Tennessee and Blue Ridge would prefer that everyone get along; but it might be good at some point for the four of us to sit down and figure out the next few years of the southeast/mid-south region. BrianD 21:38, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

South, there is a difference between not wanting someone around and disarming them and forcing them out at gunpoint without a justifiable reason. --GOPZACK 21:17, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Who's Jerry Gist? I must've missed the memo on his rulership. Jackson is one of those states that very little is known about...their motivation could be anything. It's also meant to represent the city state that is secretive, isolationist and run by people who have their own motivations for keeping to themselves. The best analogy TTL would be the citystates in the Municipal States of the Pacific run by bikers and warlords. Remember, this is a post-nuclear war world we're developing, and unfortunately not every citystate developed as well as Piedmont, Vermont or Virginia did. South, the information I've dropped is not officially in canon, but is something I can do as the de facto creator of the region - just as you can fill in details on Piedmont on the talk page that haven't yet been put up on the page proper. I figured it might be best to have a bit of mystery about the city for now, and to fill in the details as we go along - just as the people in TTL would discover them. And, I think that the city being a destination for survivors from Memphis has little or no bearing on how the citystate developed. BrianD 21:31, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Jerry Gist is the OTL Mayor of Jackson.

Yankovic270 21:41, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

I doubt Gist would have any leadership role in TTL Jackson. Assuming his counterpart survived Doomsday, he's probably in a non-government role...the guys I have in mind for controlling the town are like the warlords and bikers that ruled some of the towns in the MSP. BrianD 21:47, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Who knows, maybe Gist was "at heart" a warlord! However, he took over after two-term mayor Charles Farmer in 2007. I submit that this man might more likely serve as the model for the present leadership. He served as mayor for two terms in a new system that had underwent a recent change due to charges of disenfranchisement of the large African-American minority. With a population at 55 - 42, the racial tension must have been great -- at any one election a large turn out of the black vote could swing things if the majority is not diligent.

Another "fact" that might be a point of departure, leading to a dictator. The primary elections in May 2003 were disrupted by some mighty powerful tornadoes. In OTL the elections were just postponed. In TTL, this could have been the opportunity to switch to martial law that is still in effect. Farmer, or someone else, would take over, bringing order much like the generals did in Virginia and Kentucky. If there are warlords, it is probably a population ruled by rival gangs - along more or less racial lines. What passes as "government" might just be there to give the semblance of order.SouthWriter 23:23, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

i must admit that wars have begun over less. Belgium won its indepence via a war due to an opera after all. but a better reason for war rather then giving some heavily armed diplomatic envoys the boot. In OTL terms, Virginia might be considered to be over-reacting.Ramdominsanity 20:25, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

FYI: the envoys were all military, not diplomats. Yank can clarify re: Virginia, but in my view all Virginia/Portland exploration is led by their respective military wings. BrianD 18:09, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Another (quasi)review of 1983: Doomsday

Someone at AH.com tried to start a discussion on the TL: [1]. Mitro 14:51, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

British survivor nations

Seeing as how there are something like half a dozen fair sized "nations" in Britain that have a degree of contact with each other might it not be an idea to have some sort of mini-League of Nations for Britain?? Verence71 20:54, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Fiji & French Polynesia

From what I can find Xi'Reney created both of these articles and my research shows that he has not edited anything since February 4th 2010. Does he have a new account or has he simply been offline since then? In any event I am interested in adopting Fiji and French Polynesia from him. (with his blessing of course) If anyone could contact him or help me contact him that would be dandy. Thanks --GOPZACK 23:07, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

He would probably say yes... "Globe-Spanning France" was his idea and he did some developmental work on it but largely let it be. I do not think he ever did any real work on Fiji beyond acknowledging its existence.

I recently suggested to Bob that the Fijians might well acknowledge King Andrew Windsor as "King of Fiji," a role that is mostly honorary in the islands and basically puts the British monarch at the top of the traditional aristocratic structure (it's very interesting, from what I've read). Since Andrew is the rightful Tui Viti, I think it would make sense for the Fijians to recognize him as such, maybe invite him over for some sort of ceremony. Benkarnell 02:07, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose then unless anyone wields a significant objection I will begin to edit both articles. --GOPZACK 04:33, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Book About Lost American States

I recently ran across a very interesting book which was just published called Lost States by a Michael Trinklein which provides maps and brief histories about proposed or failed US states. I mention it because someone creating a survivor nation in the US might find it of some use. I found it fascinating and it offered an alternative name I might have used when setting-up the UCD. Fxgentleman 05:11, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

There is also this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_secession_proposals of various proposed US States. --GOPZACK 16:39, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal overload

I think we have around 60 proposals currently on the docket. That is the highest I have seen the list in a long time. If you think there are any articles that can be graduated, please speak up by saying so on their entries in the proposal section below. Mitro 18:44, March 19, 2010 (UTC)

Question for editors regarding Vermont, Texas and Piedmont...and potential future proposals

Would it affect the TL if I rewrote Vermont to have had limited contact with other nations before 2000, for Piedmont to be a known nation state in the Southeast by the early 2000s...and for West Texas to have not been isolationistic, but have had its conflict with Mexico, worked it out and become a somewhat influential nation in the old Southwest?

I'm asking these questions with SouthWriter's recent comments on various talk pages in mind: how realistic are our proposals? Specifically here, how realistic is it for nation states as complex and (relatively) large as we've built them to have been unknown in their respective regions for as long as 25 years after Doomsday? I wrote Vermont and Texas as isolationalists because I tried to work within the framework of previously established canon; I assumed canon had been established for legitimate reasons, and unless there was a darn good reason to change it it was best to work within it.

Therefore, I come to all of you, particularly the editors who have been here the longest. BrianD 04:14, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Go for it, if you need any help let me know :) --GOPZACK 04:32, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Piedmont, SouthWriter and I could come up with a proposal involving that nation.

Re: Texas:

• The history of West Texas stays the same through the '85 earthquake. It even goes isolationistic in regards to Mexico.
• This time, though, the outcry from the people is so great that the government eventually decides to reverse itself and pursue relations with Mexico.
• The increasing presence of American refugees in Mexican government and business helps West Texas's cause.
• Around this time, American refugees come under increasing persecution from some nationals, leading to riots on both sides and unfortunate assaults on, and a few murders of, American refugees by radical nationals, and a few Mexican nationals by refugees.
• The Mexican government knows it has to deal with the crisis, so it contacts Canberra to ask for Bush's advice on the situation (since de la Madrid met with Reagan, you would have to think that he would contact Bush on this matter, since Texas would be considered American territory. It would have some ramifications for the APA, and rewriting portions of that history, though).
• Bush encourages Mexico - urges, actually - to reopen ties with West Texas, and while knowing there is nothing his administration could do in the situation, he reminds Mexico Texas is still technically part of the USA.
• Texas and Mexico make up, with Mexico City/Mexica recognizing Midland as the capital of the Republic of Texas.
• Mexican scouts discover isolated survivor communities in south Texas, and a string of communities in eastern Texas having formed their own Texas provisional government.
• Waco - midway between Midland and Nacogdoches - is trying to get back on its feet; the day Mexican Army scouts walk into the city, and inform the people that Mexico, Bush, Australia, South America, et al have survived Doomsday, is the day that turns it around for the beleaguered city. Instead of descending into a cycle of violence and despair, the people find hope.
• Gradually, Mexico helps facilitate the meeting of President Atkins in Mexico with his counterparts from east Texas, and Waco, and representatives from the south Texas towns, villages and remaining survivor camps (including one possibly set up in a KOA).
• Sometime in the 1990s, the four camps agree to reunify the state and send representatives to a constitutional convention at Baylor University. Bush even agrees to send a representative, though for other reasons the APA never gets up there before its dissolution.
• The APA dissolves, with the added provision of granting Texas the option of joining the ANZC, or Mexico, or going independent. My meager understanding of TTL Texas history suggests to me Texans would choose independence, especially given peaceful relations with Mexico.
• In 1996, the Republic of Texas, with its capital in Waco midway between east and west Texas, is born. George H.W. Bush will have visited the new republic in the late 1990s.
• By the founding of the LoN, Texas will have good relations with Dinetah and Utah, as well as Broken Bow, Hot Springs and Louisiana (all of which it discovered during various Texas/Mexico scouting expeditions), Hattiesburg and Natchez, as well as Cuba, the East Caribbean Federation, Puerto Rico, central America, south America and of course the ANZC. The South Padre Island port will have been established by then as well.
• With some Mexican nationals immigrating north for the job opportunities, and with some American refugees opting to return to Texas or move there (from Arizona or New Mexico or California, via Mexican refugee camps), the 2010 TTL population could be anywhere from a million to 3 million. G.W. Bush could shuttle back and forth between Midland and Mexico City, setting up for a 2012 Presidential campaign. Conaway would be the current President.
• Re: Vermont: independence leads to isolationism, but contact with Aroostook, the St. Lawrence Raiders and Canada leads to some sort of "Atlantic treaty" by the late 1990s. An unofficial confederation of New England is formed, with Vermont taking the lead in establishing a port in southern Maine. The question of New Hampshire independence or being part of Vermont would need to be settled. I would also need to write in the Keene proposal as well.

Thoughts?BrianD 15:20, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

I like these ideas. The possibility of a Texan state within the APA does raise some intresting qeustoins.Ramdominsanity 13:41, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

Bump.

Random, questions for the plausibility of a unified Texas, or for the APA itself? BrianD 12:47, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

The APA in particular.Ramdominsanity 17:58, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

That's what I thought. I do think it further shows the APA's inability to govern any part of the former U.S. And, if Bush had contact with Mexico, there were bound to be serious questions to him as to why he settled in Australia, and not in texas, or Hawaii, or southern Oregon, or even the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City. We've clearly established it, but never really got into any challenges to that...I guess early on the editors here thought America was a total wasteland. We've clearly established that isn't the case. It makes more sense that people would challenge Bush on that (and could help inform why countries like Virginia are so adamant against the U.S.) BrianD 18:54, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

The main problem as i see it is that a Texan Survivor state that the APA nows about is that it would make the APA think "if Texas survived, why not Vermont or Northern Michigan or something?" the problem is that the timeline was created on the premise that the USA was devestated. Yet it clearly was not. Ramdominsanity 19:19, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's our collective faults, I suppose. However....given the constant complaints in OTL then, and now, about government inefficiency and incompetence...could we use that to help explain the APA's actions? That whomever the individuals running government were (besides Reagan and Bush) THOUGHT the country was totally destroyed...and were wrong. We would probably need to define why Bush chose Canberra over Mexico City (remember in The Day After Tomorrow movie where the Cheney analogue is running the U.S. government out of the American embassy there?), and why the APA never tried to reestablish the capital in Hilo or Juneau. Despite the destruction of three Australian cities, Australia must have offered the APA many more advantages than Hawaii, Alaska or a lawless Pacific Coast - or an embassy in Mexico - ever could. BrianD 19:29, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

bump. I'm serious about the Texas proposal. Or, at least rewriting the portion to allow for earlier and increased contact w/Mexico, Dinetah and other regional survivor states. BrianD 22:01, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Ashes of the 26th

See http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=3198559

Look familiar? Mitro 23:58, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Has anyone gone over there and commented? BrianD 01:58, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

He names 1983:DD as an influence on his work. Looks like he dropped some more nukes in the Southern Hemisphere to make things worse there. Interesting twist - what if Australia and Brazil were as bad off as the US? BrianD 01:59, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

What I like is how most of the other posters seem familiar with 1983DD and like it. We have fans! Benkarnell 17:59, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

having fans gives people warm, fuzzy feelings. :)HAD 18:44, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

Future of Timeline, both literally and metaphorically

Moved to Talk:2010 WCRB report on the Future Geopolitical Outlook (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 00:49, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Related pages

Where did the "related pages" things at the bottom of the articles come from? they look out of place. --HAD 09:38, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

I believe it is a new feature that comes with wikia. We didn't have any control over it. Mitro 13:13, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. --HAD 14:37, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Additions to headlines

why do the recent WRCB headlines seem like proposals rather then statments. surely you propose soemeting onb the takpage then create a headline?--HAD 16:26, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Why does Virginia and the Dixie Alliance care about what is going on in California? Mitro 03:30, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

And how do they know? That - while not the topic of your question - brings up the topic of communications in 2010 TTL. How do the various nations know what's going on, unless the Associated Press or UPI (or Reuters) was resurrected? We have to assume some reliable, global press agency is operational and informing people on what's going on...we also have to assume that's how the Dixie Alliance is aware of California and keeping up with it. So the alliance can support whomever they want, but practically, it would do well to concentrate more on the Cannibal Hordes of Nuked Memphis than the Chumash Republic. BrianD 05:40, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Uh, "Cannibal Hordes" -- in 2010? Joking, right? SouthWriter 12:50, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

I have to go with South on this one. I have no doubt that in some places there were outbreaks of cannibalism, but any "bands" would have burned themselves out a long time ago. Mitro 13:13, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I claim Reuters. Someone else can create the WCRB Press Agency or claim UPI or whatever. BrianD 05:40, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

It can be certain that such places as stable as Australia and New Zealand, and parts of South America, would have news agencies that did not depend on the "international" new agencies for their stories. They would have agents around the world covering things and getting the news back home by whatever media was available. The news in the northern hemisphere after DD, though, would depend on the re-establishment of radio broadcasts and relay stations to get the word back to Jarvis Bay, etc. I figure their would be at least two agencies - one in ANZC and one in SAC. The USSR would probably also have one up and running as well. Any group that wanted complete coverage would have to work with all three regional agencies.

By 2010, of course, there would be Reuters (as Brian has established) and probably an American agency working out of a stable area like West Texas. And then there could be "leaks" from intelligence agencies via shortwave broadcasts that could be picked up and judicially shared. SouthWriter 12:50, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have to object to this whole Virginia-Chumash union. The current state of North America makes any such organization highly improbable. Furthermore it is unlikely that either state could provide aide to the other in case they are attacked. Mitro 15:58, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Loose Nukes

I know this has just been brought up in the discussion above but it is defiantly worth looking into. Does anyone have any thoughts on which nations may still posses some left over nukes? Should we make a page deciated to the serch for missing/loose nikes? (If so I'll gladly start one up.) --GOPZACK 21:09, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Israel would have a few still. They have already used a couple post-Doomsday. India would also still have nukes post-Doomsday, but since it has balkanized, it might be possible that more than one successor state has one. Mitro 23:06, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

How about the PUSA or the USSR? --GOPZACK 23:16, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Any nuclear weapons in PUSA territory would either already be used on Doomsday or destroyed when the Soviet nukes hit the silos there. The USSR is another story. Mitro 23:32, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Israel would definitely have a full and intact nuclear arsenal. Based on my research, they would have had missiles, bombs, artillery shells, and mines. Two other thoughts though. South Africawas engaged in a nuclear weapons program in 1983, so what would have happened there as the nation fell apart. Also, I think it would stand to reason some smaller nukes would have escaped the USSRinto nearby nations, perhaps ex-military using them as bargaining chips. As I mentioned earlier about Iraq, I think some of these soldiers would head there and logic indicates maybe parlay with Iraq for asylum be giving them give them a couple of artillery shells or something smaller, which they could then use against the Iranians. However, I think it likely they would be squandered quickly and as such, Iraqwould only briefly be a nuke power. Shells, suitcase nukes, mines, and mortars are likely what would be floating around there, Europe, and the old US rather than missiles. It would of course depend on where such items were stored and if a site survived the war. As such, we would have to determine, if possible, where these were in 1983. Fxgentleman 23:42, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

USSR certianly would have them. Israel is a definate possibility. "Pacific France" or whatever its called might have some based around the old Force de Frappe SSBNs, while some European nations might have old tactical nukes such as the SS-20, Pershing and such and such. Prussia, the two Polands and Belarus are likely candidates in this catergory. the PUSA probably has some B61s stashed away somwhere. Scary thought: Scily might have nukes recovered from the nuclear sharing agreemnent storage stations. --HAD 09:43, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Hello? Any readers?HAD 16:25, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

Glad to be alive

Sometimes when I am working on this TL I become struck by the enormity of the disaster that was averted. I got this while working on the article. Everyday I add a new city, a new place that thousands or millions of people died in this ATL, and so many who will never be born (including myself). Really makes you feel glad to be alive huh? Mitro 18:21, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. BrianD 05:33, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Ditto on that. On the record, I must say that nuclear weapons and the whole concept of detterent scares the bejebus out of me.HAD 11:31, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Hi, HAD. I never have figured out what those letters mean, by the way. I guess it shows how we are "divided by a common language." For instance, your sentence above misses the American usage in the first two phrases. We usually say "ditto TO that" and "FOR the record." By the way, the word is not "bejebus," but rather "an aleration of by Jesus." (and thus a 'minced oath').

As far as "mutually assured destruction" (aptly known as 'MAD'), more cool heads have called it "peace through strength." The Roman legends had peace because everyone knew they would be annihilated if they crossed the emporer. That was "peace through strength." When "super powers" arise, it becomes within their best interests to assure each other that an attack will bring misery to both sides. Diplomacy, then, becomes the better part of valor. Only a madman (no pun intended on the acronym) would attack an opponent that there is little chance of defeating. 'Detterent,' though, is necessary because otherwise there are those that will 'take advantage' of the weak. That is the nature of mankind. "Madmen" do come to power, and 'passive' defense is not always the best idea. If a madman can direct an army from behind the lines, then he will. If, however, the opponent comes to him, he must show himself stronger or resort to diplomacy. Therefore, if the oppressor is convinced that the victom is stronger, or just as strong and willing to retaliate, he will hold off attacking. That is 'deterrent.' SouthWriter 13:21, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

I am aware of the nature of deterrent. The problems arise when it fails or accidents happen, as postulated in this scenario. By the by, HAD means nothing. At all. If pressed, i'd say it means "Happiness And Dignitiy". Secondly, i am aware of my admittingly bizzare use of the English language. Any unusual phrase-turns are delibrate, designed to amaze and impress. HAD 13:32, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, you are 'playing with' our language. I have fun reading the likes of FERO, for whom the English is a second language. However, when an Englishman attempts to turn the phrases, it is confusing to say the least. It is like the Masad agent on NCIS in her misuse of American idiom, it is good for a laugh when it happens unintentionally. Intentional misuse, though, needs to be more subtle. Something is indeed "on the record" if it is written down. "For the record" denotes permission to record one's statement. So, saying "on the record" should mean that what you are saying has already been recorded. If so, I guess we'd have to see a reference to verify that, huh? [ Just 'poking your leg,' Hap.]

FYI, when I first saw those initials I was reminded of an African Violet plant. I gave it to my wife on our first anniversary. She named the plant "HAD" - short for "Henry and Debbie" (our names). You once challenged your readers on these talk pages to figure out what your use of "HAD" stood for (it's 'on the record,' but I don't know the search terms to easily find it!), so I actually tried to figure it out. Not being up on British idiom, though, I gave up. By the way, flower of the original "HAD" is pressed in an old dictionary of ours - next to the entry for 'had.'

I, also, am 'glad to be alive,' for my life is wrapped up in that of the One who holds all that we call 'now' together! (1 Cor. 8:6)

Fair enough, my South Carolinian Friend. From now on, i will stick to "simple english" english, alliteration and all!HAD 14:33, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

I would have lived even if the nukes were launched. Makes me thank god that I was born in a small town in southern Manitoba!

Yankovic270 23:08, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Lucky you. Never clicked on to why you call yourself "Yankovic 270". If i were Canadian, i would be "CF-105" or something. HAD 23:01, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

It's because I am a hugely obsessed fan of Alfred "Weird Al" Yankovic.

Yankovic270 23:09, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough!HAD 09:56, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal overload

Ah! 60+ proposals on the docket. Please take the chance to review some of these articles and state whether you think they are ready to be graduated. Mitro 22:48, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Yikes, my attempts at graduating are not keeping pace with the proposals. Again, if you have the chance review some articles and move for them to be graduated. Mitro 17:32, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

I know this won't solve the current problem, but I was wondering if I could change the name of a recently graduated article. It's the Nanchung article. Why is it called that way, I mean, it is clearly based on the city of Nanchang and I can't find the name Nanchung anywhere. Can I move the article and correct the name?--93.138.118.165 17:51, April 12, 2010 (UTC)(Vladivostok)

Well I did find "Nan-ch'ung" which is the Wade-Giles spelling of the city. Mitro 17:55, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Well, if the city could be spelled that way, I guess we could leave it alone, it's just that Nanchang seems to be the more prevalent way of writing the name. Anyway, maybe we really should have designated proposal readers, or at least a limit on how many articles per week until the ones that aren't graduated eventually are because this is getting silly. By trying to quickly graduate articles we run the risk of creating canon content that doesn't fit well with other content. We should at least try and slow down. Oh, and I can't edit for some reason -.---93.138.118.165 18:04, April 12, 2010 (UTC)(Vladivostok)

What you say is true. We don't want to rush articles into canon that are not ready. However if you do know of any articles that you think should be graduated, please tell me. That being said we also want to avoid turning this project into work. Appointing people to be proposal readers just sounds like to much bureacracy for an AH timeline built by volunteers. As for limits, well we might be able to lean on veteran editors to finish their current articles before proposing new ones, but how do we prevent new editors from proposing articles when they might not have read our rules? Article limits and reviewers sound good on paper, but I think implementing them will cause to many issues. Mitro 18:10, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I realize that, but something needs to be done. I mean, I see around ten articles in the proposals that can be graduated. Some that really talk about already established stuff, some that I don't see the harm of graduating, and I'll say which ones later. But there are others that are practically empty. Did we really need to bring them up here? Shouldn't we wait until there is something to comment on? Sure, this way we bring up articles that couldn't possibly exist before the person takes the time to write it, but this way we just clutter the talk page and create a situation that isn't really that alarming.--93.138.118.165 18:18, April 12, 2010 (UTC)(Vladivostok)

Maybe you are right about waiting to create a section on this talk page until the article is a little more substantial. That being said some people get sidetracked and abandon articles. Also some editors might not even know the proposal exists unless its listed on the portal page or here. In a way by listing the proposal here it acts to advertise this to the entire group, which promotes the TL in the long run. All that aside, your right, maybe I have been making this situation more alarming than it really is, but it would be nice to just clear up the Proposal category of anything that doesn't need to be there anymore. Mitro 18:30, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Good points. I'll give my opinion on the articles below now and try and help out with this situation. Which is entirely not alarming! :-) --Vladivostok 18:39, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

I have three sugestions for you Mitro, 1st remove all the articles that have no content (Delete them or leave them its your choice), 2nd is to put a notice at the top of the proposals section that says "Anyone can graduate an article if there is nothing in it that breaks cannon, reasonabley spelled and no one has raised objections in (A certain period of time)". 3rd is to get contributors to list the articles they think can be graduated on a seperate page i.e Talk:1983: Doomsday/Graduation sugestions Vegas adict 18:51, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

I think I'm going to implement your first two suggestions, restating the Editorial Guidelines wouldn't hurt anybody. However I don't think we should created a new page for graduating articles. This page serves that purpose already and creating another page where people will have to go to will just make the whole process that much more formal and more confusing to new users. Mitro 18:59, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Slow down there Vegas. As much as I appreciate you trying to help, at least lets ask if anyone has any objections to marking those articles as obsolete. Mitro 19:02, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Looks like we've slashed down the number of proposals by about half. It's progress I reckon. --GOPZACK 21:18, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Qinghai earthquake

Another one... this time it's just outside the borders of Tibet in far southern Qinghai province, an extremely remote area that would (IMO) most likely be independent subsistence villages within Tibet's sphere of influence, possibly within some kind of larger dependent structure. (I could imagine a Tibetan consul or governor to liase with the village leaders in this region, but not having direct control.) Benkarnell 15:19, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Actually the area is majority-Tibetan and has a strong monastic culture. So I wrote the news item as if Jyekundo (the Tibetan name for the town) is a frontier region of the Tibetan state. Consider it non-canon unless there are no objections. Benkarnell 20:36, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Ups, must've missed this one. I agree with everything that has been written. I'll probably include some of the information in the main article as well.--Vladivostok 21:16, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Revision of History of West Texas

I'm revising history of West Texas to eliminate the isolationist history I gave it when I created the nation and to allow for more survivalist communities in the region. It's kind of a mess right now but won't be (hopefully) when I'm done. I will also be doing a similar revision of eastern Texas in the next few weeks. Your thoughts and suggestions and constructive criticism are definitely welcomed. BrianD 01:23, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Request

I have a polite request to ask of you, the 1983: Doomsday community. I ask that you please give me command of a WCRB Division in Indochina. I had no idea of where to place this, so I put it here. --Yankovic270 18:47, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Likewise, I would like to request command of the WCRB Division in East Africa seeing as i'm one of the only people to have created in depth articles in that region.Vegas adict 20:39, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

There really is no formal process for this guys. Just go the WCRB page and add your title and name there. Mitro 20:40, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Airships?

This might be a bizarre and perhaps far-fetched idea, but I think airships might have some form of popularity in the post-DD world. Why? Well, from what I've gathered they're capable of carrying decent-sized loads of cargo or passengers, they're more energy-efficient than conventional aircraft, and they can cover more direct routes than ships. Of course, there are downsides; complexity of flying and landing is a significant factor and a problem if they are used for aid transportation to underdeveloped nations with barely-trained ground crews, and the fact they are slower than aircraft (though faster than ships) is another problem. Nonetheless, if they could be built in the early 20th century that means most nations with decent industrial economies should be capable of building airships and blimps; and being less fuel-thirsty and complex than airliners makes them fairly viable for exploration and transportation.

Of course I could just be having a flight of fancy (no pun intended). Am I on to something here, or is this just another bad idea to be ripped apart by the community like Empire of Greater Germania? Fegaxeyl 12:21, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well there are three main types of Airship, Two of them are easy and quick to make and a third that can carry far more passangers/cargo but takes longer to build and relies on a supply of Helium and Hydrogen. I think the first type (Non rigid airships) would have probabley made the quickest comeback as they are esentialy oversised hot air ballons with some motors mounted on a gondala these would posibly have been used for travel or reconisance in the early days after doomsday but would have fallen out of popularity later as they are un able to carry much weight. The second type (Semi rigid airships) would have also made a comeback quickly after DD as all that is required to build them is a basic metal industry, they have a rigid keel and can either by inflated like a hot air ballon or with Hydrogen/Helium, they would probabley still be used by nations without kerosene or Helium/Hydrogen or those with very little industry. The third type would be the most usefull, these fully rigid airships have a full frame and can carry lots of passangers and cargo but can take nearly two years to build. I think though Fegaxeyl that you are on to a very good idea here, Kerosene (Aviation Fuel) is hard to refine and Airships would provide a good alternative. I do think though that propeller driven aircraft would also have made a large comeback following doomsday as well.Vegas adict 13:12, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oh no...doesn't this TL have enough AH cliches? :-) Mitro 14:16, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I on the other hand love the idea. Needless to say airships are going to be much more practical than jet aircraft in Virginia.

Yankovic270 14:26, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

We might have to many AH cliches but in a world where the infastructure for jet aircraft doesn't exist (Much) airships do make a logical and sensible choice as passanger and transport vehicles.Vegas adict 14:28, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of Airships and Piston engined aircraft experiencing a resurgence. Jets are expensive and are the mainstay of 1st world nations like the SAC, USSR and CANZ.HAD 15:49, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

It's cliche but it makes sense. Go ahead and write something up, whether a page of its own or a section of the Science-and-Technology page. Just keep them sensible and play up the affordability angle. The idea of ÜBER-airships would not fit this ATL. (Anyone ever play Red Alert II? ;)) Benkarnell 16:15, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with so-called "Über-airships" being implausible, but roughly 1920's era zeppelins would be well within the technology levels of the timeline. And they would be safe too, because after the post-Hindenburg modifications to its design the sister ship the Graf Zeppelin had a long and illustrious career.

Yankovic270 16:22, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

So Goddyear Blimp and (mini) Helium Hindenburgs as opposed to Kiriv Airships, right?HAD 16:33, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Actually I believe helium blimps are more expensive to produce than a hydrogen airship, so a small survivor state stretched to the limit might actually be more interested in a hydrogen model. Hydrogen airships got a bad rep actually after Hindenburg. The fear over them was a little unfounded. Mitro 18:25, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Hydrogen is easier to refine than Helium as wellVegas adict 19:24, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I actually had a dream last night that I was in the world of 1983DD and was piloting an airship. The airship, for whatever reason, had no floor, and I kept dropping stuff and worrying that my passengers would fall. I wasn't worried about myself, for some reason. Benkarnell 23:36, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

You need to dream a better dream Ben, misquoting Les Miserables asides. But its a pretty cool mental image: Commonwealth Air Force F-18s alongside a zepplin, updated Lockheed Constellations (the best piston liner, in my opinion), sharing the skies with SAS 747s.HAD 17:33, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea, but they would most likley be expensive so nations should have very few.Baconton 23:45, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Well, having that dream was my signal to take a couple days off from work here. But I'm ready to get back in the swing of things again. I'm not an aviation expert, but intuitively it seems easier to build an airship from scratch than an airplane - a benefit for small, isolated communities cut off from their old sources of manufactured goods. And actually, it would be next to impossible to make new planes without bauxite. This map shows the score there. ANZ, South America, the Caribbean, the WAU, and Greece have decent access to bauxite among the world's major powers. The need for bauxite could help explain Siberia's push into Manchuria and the Uralian frontier. For the North American and Middle Eastern powers, airships might make better sense than new planes, for which aluminum is difficult to obtain.

Also, airships are one of the only AH cliches] we haven't incorporated yet ;). We may as well embrace them. Benkarnell 04:24, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Another 1983: DD mention

Towards the bottom of this page from tvropes.org - BrianD 05:07, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that's very cool.--Vladivostok 06:04, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Haha, yeah that was me. I also added to two other articles. Mitro 12:08, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Was Richmond, Virginia Destroyed?

I was hoping someone could clear up some confusion for me as to the status of Richmond, the capital of Virginia. I originally wrote in the UCD history it was destroyed on Doomsday and I thought it was part of canon. I noted it appeared on the revised list of DD targets as well. However, Yank is telling me it wasn't destroyed, but abandoned and subsequently occupied by the Virginian Republic and is now New Richmond, which I thought was a city constructed on or near the ruins of the old capital. I am very confused here, can someone clarify this matter for me? Thanks.--Fxgentleman 19:03, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

It was nuked. I am not gonna diss Yank, but he tends to glorify every part of Virginia for his "masterpiece". Arstarpool 02:08, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

I know it is listed in the FEMA list, but that is more if a guidline than a rule. I want to know one thing: Why would Richmond be nuked? I still see no rational explanation for the Soviets nuking Richmond. While I do not argue the rationality of nuking Washington, New York or Norfolk; I cannot agree with the Reds attacking Richmond. Richmond, Virginia was not destroyed. Give me one good reason that it'd be attacked.

Yankovic270 02:31, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Richmond was the capitol of the state. It also is home to a Federal Reserve Bank (one of 12 in the country according to Richmond's Wikipedia page.BrianD 03:12, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with BrianD. It probably got hit by a pair of 100KT nukes, being a medium sized city and all.HAD 07:59, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Possible Spammer

After several weeks, I have noticed that user Ocelot9011 has made 6 articles that contain the exact same content, albeit under different names. He has tried to pitch offers with several of us experienced editors, even telling Mitro "You will graduate this article. You cannot say no". I think someone should talk some sense into this guy and tell him his articles are not going anywhere. Arstarpool 03:13, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

This is about the Cascadia thing, right? Because I've noticed that as well.HAD 09:04, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't he the one who was blocked once for blanking the Provisional US page, and for declaring a New USA with its capital in Seattle?Oerwinde 08:42, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe we need to put the TSPF in his tail.HAD 13:35, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Norfolk Reconstruction

Is it possible to have a joint Virginian/League of Nations reconstruction of the port of Norfolk? It is the largest port in the South, and would greatly help the LoN's operations in the region.

Yankovic270 16:17, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

For a moment there I thought you were talking about the county of Norfolk on the east coast of England :) Verence71 18:01, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Nope. I'm talking about the major port city in southeastern Virginia.

Yankovic270 18:55, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Yank not this again, how many times have we been down this road? The large (and nuked) seaports of old Virginia are incredibly unlikely to be used by Virginia and the LoN. Rebuilding them is cost prohibitve and furthermore there are already survivor states in the southeast US with working ports for them to use. I'm sorry Yank, but your dream of a Virginia port is just unrealistic. -Mitro

It'd be a sea of glass.

Lordganon 00:25 June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Well that's just pefect. I try to open up Virginia to the outside world, and I fail miserably. Is there anywhere on the Virginian coast that the Virginians can build a port? And please don't tell me its in Delmarvan Virginia.

Yankovic270 13:23, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Hopewell is likely to be in decent enough shape to build a port at, and is just outside Delmarva control. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopewell,_VirginiaOerwinde 17:50, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Oer. At least someone is trying to help me.

Yankovic270 18:12, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

RV/Trailer Parks & Camp Grounds

How do small communities based in the various recreation parks around the world sound?

Yankovic270 23:12, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

They would be hard-pressed to find/make the necessary food and supplies for themselves. Most people in these parks are retirees, and more likely targets of aggression than survivors. Moreover, this is a very "consumptive" lifestyle. If you don't have a society supporting you, you cannot survive long-term. (I work in the RV industry.) Louisiannan 21:30, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Then what about the national and state parks, at least the parks that can support vegetation? There are a couple of states created in these parks (New Montgomery, Everglades). I would think that there would be more of these small states in the former US of A.

Yankovic270 20:19, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

It would be cool for some of these RV parks populations to become roving nomadic communities, travelling from place to place.174.1.100.195 17:48, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Camping

I will be gone for the weekend for a camping trip/ family reunion in Ontario. I request that GOPZACK looks after my articles while I'm away.

Yankovic270 04:05, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Will Do have a good trip! However I can only watch them today! I'm on vacation starting tomorrow and I'll be back on the 13th of July. So Yank I'm assuming you get back on Monday if so can you please watch over my articles until then. I will only be on here if its rather urgent. So Yank isn't saddled with all the work I'd like to ask SouthWriter if he can keep an eye on things as well. Thank you! Ya'll behave while I'm gone. :) --GOPZACK 18:00, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Newcommers

I was reading Eastward Expansion blog post were this OTL was mentioned as crumbling and he made a older post saying at his proposal was vandalized and he was yelled at and he now has the impression that we don't welcome newcomers this is not god and I feel we need to have a headbanging session over this I would like to start with saying if a newcomer begins editing a senior member ie Mitro Ben or Yank explain the editorial guidelines and just plainly yelling at him if he messes up doesn't solve the problem--Owen1983 13:08, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

HAD'S Wikibreak

I'm gonna be incredibly busy from know till the beginning of August. So until then, would someone mind looking after the Commonwealth of East Poland, please. Make sure it doesn't get invaded by the Prussian King whilst on a mad run around. :)HAD 18:53, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

Fragmented States

I think we need a page about the various countries that were not imacted, but still did not survive Doomsday intact (such as Liberia, Sudan and India).

Yankovic270 03:18, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

Extended Wikibreak

Well guys, this is goodbye. I am going on an extended wiki-break and won’t be back until sometime in August. The reason for my leave of absence is because I will be taking the Illinois State Bar on July 27 and the 28. Since 1 out of 10 people fail this test, I am going to have to study hard and will not be able to spend much time here. To prove how serious I am, my fiancé will be changing my password so I cannot log in under my user name if I get tempted. So if I ever do lose control, I will be on only as a faceless anon, unable to access my watchlist or my admin abilities.

There are a few things I would like to say though now that I have the chance:

• Except for those articles that I have officially opened up to adoption, I delegate the caretaking duties to Ben and Louis for all of my articles until my triumphant return. Any questions or decisions about said articles should be directed to them, unless it is something so important that my input is required. If that is the case you may contact me at mitro85@yahoo.com.
• I said it before, but remember I am not the official graduator of the timeline. Anyone can graduate an article as long as they follow the Editorial Guidelines. Please, however, follow through on your graduation. There is more to graduating an article than just removing the proposal template. Here is a suggested checklist:
  • Request the article to be graduated on the main talk page.
  • Allow time for people to insert any objections. In fact I would suggest waiting 1 to 3 days before graduating an article. I think we have been graduating articles too quickly, which is partly my fault, and is one of the factors that have led to some of our current issues. Also treat nation articles with a fine tooth comb.
  • If there are no objections or any objections have been satisfied, you can graduate the article. Start by archiving the article’s proposal in the Former Proposal archives.
  • Go to the article’s page and remove the proposal template. Also take the time to add the {{1983: Doomsday}} template and any categories that are needed.
  • Add article’s link at the top of the new content list on the portal page. Also remove the last item on the list.
• Be respectful to each other. Just because you do not agree with someone does not mean you have to be an ass about it. Also don't fly off the handle because someone is disagreeing with you. A disagreement does not equal a personal attack.
• There has been a lot of good discussion involving the issues of this TL. Keep it up. Discussion is good.

Finally I just want everyone to know how proud I am of everything that we created. This TL has evolved from its original 2 pages to one of the largest and most active communities on this wiki. I'm going to miss working on this TL with all of you, but my exile is not going to last forever. I'm looking forward to seeing what has been created in my absence. Mitro 17:04, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Good luck!! Verence71 18:54, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

I hope you pass the Bar, my American Comrade. Good luck!HAD 19:38, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Best wishes, Mitro. Here's to excellent results!BrianD 22:38, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

All the best sir! GOPZACK 22:41, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Wish you the best of luck! Arstarpool 00:36, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Deeply sorry I missed your (temporary) goodbye Mitro (like so many things)... All the best to you..!! Cheers Xi'Reney 21:54, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

"Threads"

Might I recommend that any contributers to "1983: Doomsday", rent and watch the British nuclear war film "Threads".

Gblack61 20:19, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

After Armageddon Wiki

Hi. Sorry to headhunt and spam, but the After Armageddon Wiki is awfully similar to Doomsday (although there are some major differences, see the Wiki Editing Conventions page on the AA wiki) and I thought maybe some of you would like to contribute.

The wiki is here: http://afterarmageddon.wikia.com/wiki/After_Armageddon_WikiMichael Douglas 21:35, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oops...

I think I deleted everything. Again. Sorry chaps.HAD 18:36, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind, my computer was playing tricks on me. Ignore my previous posting.HAD 18:37, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Whale farming?

I brought you the notion of airships, now I bring you another ludicrous - but possibly workable - idea.

Whales can provide huge sources of not only meat, but also other products. With their numbers increased due to a likely fall in whaling post-Doomsday they would be readily available food stocks which opportunistic coastal nations could make the best of. However, rather than run the industry on luck, could a rich enough state (Japan, ANZC, Victoria) net in a number of whales to a particular bay or coral and establish a breeding population? Japan had OTL plans for something like this - ostensibly for research - though it was unsurprisingly shot down by the environmentalists. But with most people in TTL concerned about their next meal than happy whales, might we see in the decades after Doomsday people starting to farm whales on an increasing scale? I understand the idea is far-fetched and economically taxing - Minke whales, the smallest, require around 200kg of fish daily - but any nation that managed to pull off the notion might be able to supply itself with large amounts of food and have a significant trading source for inland nations. The strongest nations (like the ANZC) could probably rope together their neighbours to construct the large infrastructure necessary to sustain the industry and make it profitable.

I know that this is a very implausible idea, and I won't be surprised if it's shot to pieces, but if you consider it objectively and from the perspective of a starving post-Doomsday citizen, the idea might just be workable, in spite of the economic and ecological flaws. Fegaxeyl 09:46, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Very Impausible, and the 1983DD WWF in ANZC would protest.

When there are starving people and murders over food the whale farmers could care less about what some Eco-Aussies thought on whale protection. Most people in the OTL world think of themselves before animals, and in a timeline like this they would be eating whatever walked, flew, swam, or crawled. Remember that whales are a very good source of a lot of different food and non food items. Arstarpool 20:19, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

Well I wouldn't have put it that way but Arstar is right. I could see them now with the situation stabilizing reducing or possible banning in some areas but not in the first decade or so. --GOPZACK 20:35, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

Will go on the record and say that this version of the WWF is more concerned with investigating the environmental changes since/caused by DD on a larger scale than this, though in ANZC they would oppose it, for sure.

I could see Japan, Nordic Union, parts of the West Coast, the ANZC, Hawaii, and maybe the Western parts of South America being involved in this somewhat. Esp. Japan and the Nordics.

Lordganon 08:26, August 8, 2010 (UTC)

WTD is going on between East Britian and the Celtic Alliance?

WTD (What The Duece). Why has the Celtic Alliance declared a blockade of East Britian over the comments the East British PM made? It's a bit of an over-reaction, isn't it?--HAD 16:20, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Sure sounds like it. Mitro 17:09, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

I think the OBN would much rather the situation be settled by peaceful means but none of nations of the OBN are members of the LoN they would be concerned that the Celtic Alliance has much more influence on the world stage. That in itself is one of the reason for the existence of the OBN Verence71 18:58, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Speaking as the President-General of Virginia, until this dispute is settled, the Virginian Republic will officially sever all ties to the Celtic Alliance. The Virginian ambassador to the Celtic Alliance will become the first ambassador to East Britain.

Yankovic270 19:05, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

This isn't a RPG. Who is responcible for the Celtic Alliance?HAD 19:14, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Point taken and I've altered my post accordingly

I think Arstarpool is currently running the CA Verence71 19:17, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

He is indeed. --GOPZACK 21:42, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed with HAD. BrianD 20:14, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

The Newshour says something about East Britain having weapons of mass destruction? Would anyone want to elaborate on that?--Vladivostok 20:52, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with HAD to. Weapons of mass destruction? Now that sounds down right implausible. --GOPZACK 21:42, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

I believe that this move would make basically every nation on the planet ( or at least the nations in contaoct with the Celts) furious with the Celts. I don't believe the LoN will stand for this kind of unreasonable war-mongering on the part of the Celts.

Yankovic270 22:05, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

It was a joke, I just wanted to see Bob's reaction, and then I was going to delete it. No sweat, guys, it was all in good humor :D Arstarpool 02:57, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Really, meh..--Sunkist- 02:58, September 3, 2010 (UTC)