Talk: 1983: Doomsday/Former Proposals 19

People's Republic of Benin

Socialist Republic in West Africa--Smoggy80 14:25, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone think of any improvements needed for graduation?--Smoggy80 13:55, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

I think that this one's probably good, Smog. Lordganon 14:31, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

In that case is it OK for grauation?--Smoggy80 17:43, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, probably.

Is there any objections, then?

Lordganon 00:24, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

And again, none from me--Smoggy80 15:37, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

The post-Doomsday history pulls directly from the Wikipedia article and, besides Beninism and the name of the country, virtually nothing has changed. There is no history of the country after 2000 either, which needs to be added to graduate. Nothing drastic has to change, but at least elaborate further on how Doomsday affected the country. While the political situation could remain similar, other things about the country would inevitably change if for no other reason than the butterfly effect. Nothing is wrong with the article per say, but it needs to have more historical content and detail. Caeruleus 08:32, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

No, it does not pull from wikipedia. There is only a single event that is like otl, and even that has a couple of noted differences. I mean, it's even obvious.

And, there is content about post-2000, which you'd have noticed had you been bothered to read further.

Lordganon 06:27, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Apart from that objection which has been resolved any others?--Smoggy80 15:06, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

The Gambia

Member of the West African Union--Smoggy80 13:32, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone think of any improvements needed for graduation?--Smoggy80 13:54, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

An International Relations section. Lordganon 14:32, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Done, is that OK?--Smoggy80 18:21, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah.

Is there any objections, then?

Lordganon 00:24, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Once again, none from me--Smoggy80 15:37, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Guinea

Member of the West African Union--Smoggy80 13:32, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone think of any improvements needed for graduation?--Smoggy80 13:54, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

More history. A single line of post-DD history really isn't good enough, Smog. Lordganon 14:32, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Is that better?--Smoggy80 18:06, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yep.

Is there any objections, then?

Lordganon 00:24, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Not from me, obviously--Smoggy80 15:37, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Kingdom of Banfora

Kingdom in west of former Republic of Upper Volta--Smoggy80 12:51, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Also Constitution of Banfora--Smoggy80 14:38, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone think of anything I need to add to this article so it can be graduated?--Smoggy80 16:29, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Well it could probably use more of a history. But, overall, it really needs some information besides the stuff on government and history that is there right now, you know? Lordganon 07:36, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Is that any better?--Smoggy80 21:41, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Quite a bit. Maybe something on International Relations, though? Lordganon 08:15, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Added an international relations section, with that added, any objections to graduation?--Smoggy80 12:35, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Republic of Upper Volta

Autocratic nation in West Africa, (became OTL Burkina Faso in 1987, but that never occurred)--Smoggy80 11:40, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone think of anything I need to add to this article so it can be graduated?--Smoggy80 16:28, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Well it could probably use more of a history. But, overall, it really needs some information besides the stuff on government and history that is there right now, you know? Lordganon 07:36, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Is that any better?--Smoggy80 21:41, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, this one's probably good now, I think. Lordganon 08:15, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation then?--Smoggy80 12:17, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

St. Vincent and the Grenadines

Another ECF member state proposal by me. Regentage 17:10, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

The SAC, and especially the Netherlands Antilles, wouldn't be viewed as a threat. Lordganon 06:12, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Right. Resolved that. ^^ Thank you. Anything else, anyone? Regentage 13:27, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Would seem to be it. Any objections to graduation? Lordganon 01:15, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Gansu

Propasal by me (and with loadsa help from Imp) about another China remainder. GunsnadGlory 21:32, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

And... it's done. Objections? GunsnadGlory 02:26, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Um yeah...a lot of demands are still going unanswered on the talk page. All the problems such as the size, army, economy, etc. need to be addressed before we canonize this. Arstar 02:41, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Lordganon 08:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Really? The size is less than half the current province, the army has been changed to be really weak and the economy has been described as poor. Hows about now? GunsnadGlory 19:39, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Much better on the army and economy, except for that they wouldn't know about the rare earth bits at all.

Guns, have a look at the territory. It sticks out in the current otl political borders, into nothing. That just makes no sense, as I've said before, and really isn't possible.

Lordganon 07:56, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, but I'll try to work something out. GunsnadGlory 19:49, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

That's it, I think. GunsnadGlory 19:21, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I satnd corrected. That wasn't it. Now, though, I thinkest it is ready GunsnadGlory 19:20, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

Seems good to go, I'd imagine. Objections? Lordganon 00:35, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

??? It's waited for a week for objections, LG. March 5 to 12th. Shouldn't it be graduated? GunsnadGlory 18:21, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Question wasn't asked again. Now it's been. I figure it's reasonable given the tension with the article. Lordganon 01:07, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Kivu

A state by me on former eastern Zaire (South Kivu and Maniema to be more exact). Fed (talk) 17:00, December 22, 2011 (UTC)

I wondered when (or if) both articles are canonized, if there would be some meeting between Isiro and Kivu? Based on Isiro, it would probably be in the form of a war of some sort....GunsnadGlory 19:39, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

and isn't Kivu in Zaire? GunsnadGlory 21:26, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Kivu is in Zaire... Fed (talk) 23:11, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Which is east of Kongo... why would Kabila flee INTO his enemies territory, then found a state there? GunsnadGlory 02:03, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Zaire is a Congo - what was called Zaire in 1983 is today the Democratic Republic of the Congo, as compared to the Republic of the Congo you're referring to, Guns. There's two of them. And Kabila operated in the region, by and large, anyways. Lordganon 10:42, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

What LG said. When Kabila lost the first Congo Crisis in the 1960s, he fled to eastern Africa (Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania, etc). As a fellow Kivuan, he came back to the region as soon as Doomsday happened. Fed (talk) 12:33, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

I knew that... temporary fit of madness, hehe. GunsnadGlory 19:33, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

I think that we could likely call this one done. Any objections to graduation? Lordganon 08:30, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

Amazigh Confederation

This is a place holder for the Berber tribal confederacy that survives outside the present boundaries of Cyrenaica. SouthWriter 06:46, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Turn this into something like the new article version of the Tebou article, and that may actually work. But as this stands, it goes against the review results. Lordganon 08:27, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

If it is changed into an article about the Berber People in general, it will encompass too much material. As it stands now, it is a specific article about the Libyan Berbers. Is the estimated number of unassimilated Berbers too large, or is it the fact that they still might assert some influence in the villages? This is just a place-holder, so just about anything will work. I have not adopted the article yet, so anyone can edit it. SouthWriter 17:59, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Disagree.

And, once again, it's the fact that this is an organized state despite the review saying "no" to that concept.

Lordganon 18:46, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

With what do you disagree? Is it that if the aricle was changed it would encompass too much? Or that it is now an article about Libyan Berbers? Certainly it is not that "anyone can edit it"? I am practically giving this away, but I will make changes to it until it passes the muster of the community at large.

I've removed the word "oversight" but left the word "protection" (in quotes as to infer a sort of "warlord" flavor to the remnant of the resistance that was driven from the mountains). Are you saying that the Berbers, once united against the Greeks and defeated, would disband completely? It stands to reason that some sort of organization would remain. Nothing in the word "confedracy" requires a surviving state anyway. The article itself only states that the defeated confederacy (after attempting to establish a homeland) now is scattered among unclaimed villages asserting what influence they are able. This is not an "organized state," it is more like an organised gang! SouthWriter 19:17, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

My apologies, I thought it was obvious. The idea that turning it into a plausible article on the Berber peoples overall would "encompass too much."

Now who's making things up? Nowhere does the concept of them unifying occur. Moreover, the review indicates that not only they would not do so, but that if they did, it would be very temporary.

The word "Confederacy" means an organized state. As does the rest of the content.

Lordganon 07:25, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. A confederacy, per Merrian-Webster dictionary, is "a league or compact for mutual support or common action." That can be very different from an organized state, as will be fleshed out in the article once it is completed.

The Berbers have united several times throughout their history across North Africa. They have done so in a variety of ways for a variety of reasons. United Berber entities have existed since ancient Numidia to modern-day Berberism. Their unification is a highly plausible event. Caeruleus 08:07, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

And, in the context of a group, culture, region, etc. without any political organization, that definition means a state. Heck, even without that context it means a state.

As for definitions.....

To quote dictionary.com:

1. an alliance between persons, parties, states, etc., for some purpose. 2. a group of persons, parties, states, etc., united by such a confederacy.

for context, 3+4....

3. a combination of persons for unlawful purposes; conspiracy. 4. the Confederacy. Confederate States of America.

Obviously, nothing at all to do with the word here.

And, to add from later on the page:

1. a union or combination of peoples, states, etc; alliance; league

Add to all of that the fact that the term is more or less always used to refer to states. Something that a simple wikipedia search for the term would show you.

I swear, it's like you miss things intentionally. I've been telling you that the Berbers, while having united temporarily on occasion, never stay united, for weeks. I even quoted you sources to back that up. This is something that has happened in nearly all tribal confederacies for centuries, the only real exception being the Iroquois. And the Berbers are some of the worst in that fashion, as has been historically shown multiple times.

As for Berberism, you're misinterpreting it. It's not so much a nationalist movement, as one pushing for more rights, countering recent Arabization attempts. Heck, the groups in Algeria and Morocco aren't aligned, or even hold the same beliefs. Nor do these groups really exist elsewhere, either.

Lordganon 06:42, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Objections to marking as obsolete? Lordganon 14:26, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

No--Smoggy80 18:17, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Clearly there is objection from SouthWriter and myself. Also, the article hasn't even been up for 2 weeks yet. You can't declare it obselete in such a short time frame. Caeruleus 18:35, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Actually the results of the review of the Libya article is applicable here, Feg and Imperium Guy both agreed with myself and LG that nations in Libya (other than Cyrenacia, Egypt and Tamahaq) are simply not possible--Smoggy80 18:41, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Caer, you are wrong on all counts.

So, again: Objections?

Lordganon 00:58, March 20, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there are objections. I am sure you have read the page and the proposal. Neither place does it say anything about a state now in existence. If the word can be used for a group that is not a nation, then it is not for you to make that determination. You can object to the term, but you cannot determine by the term that it must be rejected since it "is a nation." There are proposals that have been up for so long people have forgotten them, so the objections of one or two people over a proposal does not warrant the "obsolete" label just yet.

Furthermore, as to "making things up," this is an alternate history. And anything that is not stated in a canon article is possible and thus open to proposal. The ethnic Berbers are known have been anti-Qadaffi. In the uprising that caused the disintegration of Libya would naturally include Berbers united for that cause. Read what is written: (1) Greece, (2) Cyrenaica (map) and also, and (3) Egypt. What do you read there? Only in the article on Egypt is there a mention of the extent of what Cyrenaica encompasses. The mention is a fair one, for sure, since both the Greece map and Ganon's map of Africa definitely have the coast covered. But then, it is only the unchallenged maps that establish this. One can see where there is honest room for interpretation.

SouthWriter 21:16, March 20, 2012 (UTC)

For the love of Christ, calm the hell down. What on earth is wrong with you?

The word "Confederacy," as I've pointed out and defined, does mean a state. Moreover, the content of the article does as well. Caer's definition even means a state. All definitions that remotely can be applied to this mean it is a state, as does any precedent. And that just is not possible.

I am following the rules about proposals to the letter. And if you weren't so blasted angry, you'd see that.

Despite all evidence to the contrary, you have them united. That is making things up, for your own benefit. One based on entirely inaccurate assumptions, yet.

And, now all references, as the review indicated, to such a thing in the Libya article has been removed.

So, I repeat myself: Objections to marking this obsolete?

Lordganon 08:22, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

Once again, No--Smoggy80 15:56, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

As there have been no objections to the obsoletion of this article, i'll mark it as obsolete, i'll leave it on here for 1 week incase there are any late objections--Smoggy80 17:43, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Fezzan

Still another place holder -- for the other Arab tribes in their self-proclaimed Union of Libya. SouthWriter 06:46, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

The region is home to several surviving towns of greatly reduced populations. Chief among them are Murduq, Sabah and Awbari.

• These three are up for adoption, the shells available to flesh out the gaps in what is left unclaimed in southwestern Libya. SouthWriter 06:46, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

My apologies for any confusion -- by "these three, I meant the three proposals, not the three towns mentioned above. SouthWriter 18:53, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

• Fezzan, as a "realm" for the influence of the "Union of Libya," is being withdrawn. However, since it is a legitamant geographical area, the shell of the article may still be useful. I will remove content from it sometime on Wednesday. SouthWriter 04:58, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Moved from the former "Murzuq" section:

Once again: this city is inside of Egyptian territory. Lordganon 11:53, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Exact overlay, based on Google Earth

Actually, it is at the border of your arbitrary line of expansion. The text of the article on Egypt only hints at the extent of western expansion. The only reason the Egyptian would go that far is for the oil (which was not discovered in TTL). Besides, in a refuge city, the Tebou are not a threat to Egypt, only protected. Like I say, this is an article about the city. It can go any way the consensus wishes for it to go. SouthWriter 14:58, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Erm... Could be wrong?? But surely the whole reason why the Libya article is under review is that fact that this, the one above and the next state down on this proposal list are impossible? Until that review is decided and it is now looking like the tide of opinion is turning against these states, then these should not be on here as proposals?--Smoggy80 16:26, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Could be, Smoggy. Look at the change in emphasis as to each entity. All idea of "states" is gone for good. Murzuq may or may not be independent, but it still exists. That is the only point of this article, to provide a link to explain the fatie of the Tebou tribes that you and Mitro put in the original article.

Berber identity will not disappear altogether, and all the artilce in proposal does is present a historical resistance movement 'in remission,' if you will, until such a time as instability once again makes resistance possible. The name of the article could be changed to "Berber people" as it appears in Wikipedia.

I almost removed Fezzan from the list, but hopefully the region has at least a few thousand people left in it. If not, it can be written as to indicate the complete abandonment of the whole region as a barren wasteland awaiting reclamation. But then, after discussion, it is decided that there is nothing to write about, then it goes obsolete -- or can even be deleted (if it is decided that it absolutely cannot have ever had a history after DD, that is). SouthWriter 20:57, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

No. It is, without question, inside of Egyptian territory. Nor does making maps that way work at all. A question of scale, and size differences, mean that anything you do to it will be off.

That article still has these states in it, and refers to them in language that clearly indicates that they are such. When they cannot be.

Both this one and Fezzan are not possible, in the slightest. And the other one? It's not better than they are. And completely ignores that they would never do such a thing.

Lordganon 08:46, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Somehow I did not get notice of your remarks earlier. When I labeled the picture, I was not kidding,

Smoggy's original map

Ganon, this is an exact overlay. You were working with an outline map, and I used that outline to overlay your map on a scale-downed Google Earth map. At best, your line comes right up to Murzuq and Sabha. But it is just that, your line. You drew the map based on your interpretation of the Egypt article, extending the line arbitrarily beyond what Smoggy had originally drawn. True enough, you asked the community about the accuracy of your maps, but at the time, no one felt a need to challenge them. But as you can see, you missed it a little bit in this case.

Both the chosen name for the new province and the fact that only "small towns" were encountered in the expansion limits the expansion of Egypt. The western cities in question were on the other side of a vast wasteland of desert and in all likelihood the Egyptians had no reason at all to expand into that region. And one more thing, Ganon, your inclusion of absolutes - in itallics no less - does not strengthen your argument. You are not perfect, so all such qualifiers such as 'in the least," "without question," and the like, are not necessary. SouthWriter 04:06, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

In studying the Tebou, I found that there is desert between them and Murzuq, so this article is going to be changed to one on the Tebou People. However, since Ganon's objection about location has to do with Fazzan as well, and Murzuq is within the boundaries of the reworked Fezzan, I am going to move these remarks to that section. SouthWriter 04:06, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

You entirely missed my point.

Maps scaled like that are not entirely accurate with placement. Ever.

If you'd have bothered to look at the article, you'd find that the day I uploaded that map, Smog changed the map on the Egypt article from hers, to the one I made. In other words, at that time, it became the map of Egypt - and recognized as such by Smog.

And, before you start in on me about it, my involvement with the article did not start until more than four months later.

No, they do not in the least limit its expansion.

And, this is something that is supported by the results of the review.

As such, the "state" of Fezzan is not in the least bit possible. Both of the quoted cities are in Egypt. And in addition, its people are dead.

Lordganon 08:39, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Only you've said they're dead LG. Nothing about the review indicates that the population is dead, as you say. The review called for a substantial population decline, nothing more. 5-15% of the population survives, as demanded by the review. This article works within those confines. Caeruleus 18:39, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

No. Not in the least.

At most, 5% of the population surviving, and, as the review has also indicated, virtually none of it from the cities. Small, tiny, nomad groups and the small oasis towns. And, that? That's the people being dead.

This "article" does not work, whatsoever. And, indeed, goes against what the review decision has been.

Lordganon 00:23, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

NO. You, Ganon, are not the final arbiter of all things DD. You may be ever present, but you are not the "god" of this time line, much less the wiki which contains it. You have gone against reason, and have made arbitrary pronouncements long enough. If you are going to insist that your opponents are wrong -- and insinuate they are lying, you need to have more than your word to back up what you say.

As for the maps, I do believe that they are no more than your estimates on what the articles are stating. The point about Smoggy's map is that it was an illustration of her estimate as the editor in charge of Egypt at the time. When you put up your map, it was larger, more colorful, and looked a whole lot more "professional." The difference was barely perceptible and no one had any reason to question it at the time. It is only by chance, it seems, that the perceived expansion actually reached Murzuq and Sabha. Smoggy's recent suggestion that the 16 degree East longitude be used as a defined western border further indicates that her interpretation of the expansion does not go as far as does yours. The maps are close enough, by the way, to allow that either one of us are right.

The reason the Egypt article mentions only small towns is because that is basically all there is in the east. The water there is deeper and harder to get to than that in the west. You only postulated the utter collapse of the larger towns after Caer mentioned one of them (a smaller one, no less). Caer answered your objections point by point, but all you did was offer dogmatic denials, at times even insinuating he was lying. We need more than just your assertions to base the article upon. In short, you try to prove too much. You first say that the towns are gone, and then you say they can have as much as 10% of their former population. Then you deny that such towns can be organized into any sort of government.

Ganon, you do not have to be right all the time. This is a group activity and it is supposed to be fun. You make it a living nightmare. If you want to be in complete control of the time line, let us know, for it is certainly not worth battling you for weeks on end.

Rant over. Have a great day. --SouthWriter 04:10, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I have given ample reason more than enough that you are wrong. And, others agreed with me. What in god's name is your problem? You're wrong, and should have admitted as such long ago. Heck, you did and are now even arguing against your earlier statements.

I have not gone against "reason." Not once.

Smog recognizes the boundaries of the Africa map, and has done so for nearly a year. That, there is no question of, and her opinions in the overall argument show that to be the case as well. Your line about it looking more "professional" has no relevancy. And, your bit about her proposed "16 degree East longitude" question, as I pointed out to her then - which you've failed to either notice, or mention - is that it was already past that point, and that, as the review has supported there is nothing to their west.

I am not being dogmatic in the least. Both the accepted, canonical maps, and the review agree on that being the boundary. And that this "state" is impossible.

Now who's fibbing? I have said from the start that one reason these things are impossible is because more or less everyone is dead. And, quite frankly, Caer does lie - whether or not it is intentional may be debated, but the fact remains that it does happen - and entirely misses concepts, as both myself and Fed have pointed out on this page, in the last month, alone. It's not something new, either, as past problems with his articles have indicated. And, I did answer his "arguments" point-by-point too.

And, you entirely misrepresent me. Again. I have said from more or less the start that only the nomads, and the small, small, oasis towns would be mostly intact. Moreover, I've only ever said 5% - a major compromise, which you're given me no credit, once again and as usual, for - because that, at best, is the population of these areas.

The review has come to a conclusion - one in support of my arguments, both the original ones, and those since. And that result? Means that this "state" is impossible. And that means you have no ground to stand on, whatsoever.

Lordganon 06:51, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

All you have done, Ganon, is state over and over the same old arguments, declaring your opponent to be wrong and you to be right. You have not denied my contention that your map is the key to your "canon" argument, though it was the argument for "canon" upon which you based this review. When I pointed out that the articles did not mention anything you said they did, you fell back on your maps which contradict (expand upon) the original maps. To say you have "not once" gone against reason is to declare the other side of the argument totally unreasonable, which is hardly ever the case. It is tantamount to insisting, again, that you are always right.

As for the boundary line of western Egypt, the 16 degree mark was indeed passed in Smoggy's original map. However, not by the six degrees that you push it. The reason she postulates the 16 degree boundary is because it measures easily straight north from the tip of Chad. As the editor at the time, that idea had not occurred to her, it is, of course in the middle of the desert and a degree on either side would not make much difference. In fact, it is most likely that the Tebou people would join with their brothers when they got the chance.

As for the arguments, by your own admission you abandoned the 'against canon' arguments in favor of the 'not viable' angle. Canon is silent on the tribes, and it was not a secret scheme by Caer to "slip the nations" into the area otherwise not covered in canon. Mention was made of the tribes, and he attempted -- over a period of five months (since September 14, 2011) -- to put some meat to those tribes. It is upon the question of viability that the review turned.

This article is a proposal for the historical region of Fezzan, not any political entity that might arise -- or fall -- there. Argument can be made as to the size of the population, but the region still exists and has some people in it. And a point of argument, a lie is never unintentional. To accuse someone of lying is a serious thing, for that means you question their integrity. I have not accused you of lying because I don't believe you intentionally seek to mislead. However, your maps do conveniently come in handy when the time comes. I chalk that up to a subconscious act of working in your vision for the articles, though.

Well, I've written enough, so I'll leave this to others. Have a great evening, everyone. --SouthWriter 21:38, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, you said I was lying. But, you're always denied that before, so why should today be different? And, now you're doing what you claim of me, again.

I swear, it's like you're not even reading what I'm telling you on one hand, what others have said on another, and on yet another, what the results of the review are.

The map, as I've said several times is not, as you insist on saying, "the key." The "key" is that there's more or less no one there. Something which the map supports and indicates. Which is also something you once said, but have now flip-flopped on. Heck, you even just killed off your own argument, once again.

No, I did not "drop" the "not canonical" arguments. Which is pretty blasted obvious, and I am, quite frankly, disturbed that you'd say it.

Lies, as I've pointed out to you before, several times, can be unintentional. And your accusations about me are getting really, really old. No one's been mislead, at all - though, I can see that with rose tinted glasses, it may seem that way to you, yet again. Lord knows, it's not the first time.

I'm well aware of what the article currently says. Along with the fact that it is contradicted by what the Libya article says. Along with there being no content present, no people there, and no need for such a thing. Even the tiniest vestige of a state is impossible. And so is an article on nothing.

Lordganon 01:54, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Technically, of course, the review is ongoing, but you have apparently won. Congratulations. I suppose by "killing off" my own argument, you mean I have agreed to your terms. That's compromise, Ganon. You are not going to give an inch, so this article is about whatever compromise can be garnered. Be it a meager alliance of oases dwellers within a days camel drive (assuming no fuel)of each other, there will be some people in the vicinity of the Sabha-Murzuq-Awbari region.

As for the map, you know what I am talking about. It is hard for me to believe that you foresaw that some resistance in Murzuq or Sabha and then, pushed the new map to the edge of that area "just in case." As with Cyrenaica, the Egypt map was changed without any indication in the articles as to any such "continuing expansion." Like I said, probably subconscious, but it worked out for you. And it is you that have vacillated on how many survive: from "they're all dead" to "no town larger than 5,000" to "more or less no one there" (how can there be less than no one?). What I have done in agreeing with Caer is continue to go down.

In answer to the "canon" issue (my original post to the review) you stated: "You'll notice that the ones you took issue with were more or less tossed aside? Given that, in light of you not commenting on the rest, your opinion thus has no bearing on the remainder. "

What do you mean by "tossed aside"? I took issue with your main issues -- Canon and "states slipped in" -- I showed that the articles did not cover the issue, and that the process of adding the actions of the tribes was a gradual thing and could be taken as an an expansion of previous mention of the tribes. Your reasons for the implausibility of the tribal "nations" followed as a corollary to the points I addressed. If you mean were tossed aside as worthless, then it you that have a problem. I did not have to address every issue, Caer did a good job of those on his own.

I don't know what dictionary you use but a lie is indeed always unintentional. Someone can be mistaken in their beliefs, and many people will pass on things that they think to be true but which are not, but without the intent to decieve they are not lies. The American Heritage Dictionary states:

lie n. 1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. 2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression. --lie v. lied, ly·ing (lº“¹ng), lies. --intr. 1. To present false information with the intention of deceiving. 2. To convey a false image or impression. --tr. To cause to be in a specific condition or affect in a specific way by telling falsehoods.

Without intention to deceive, there is no lie. Sometimes the truth is selectively chosen to bolster an argument while avoiding inconvenient facts that do not, but that is the art of debate. Just like nobody is always right, no one is always wrong. Caer has presented facts that you have dismissed over and over. I presented the articles as I understood them in trying to show that the canon issue was not the problem, and you agreed, to an extent, and went on to the plausibility. Your arrogance in insisting that you are "absolutely" correct on all points does not make it so. As you point out, I have "flip-flopped" on some points, but that is my admitting I was wrong.

Actually, this article only states that the Fessan is a geographic area redefined somewhat from its original area. The Libya article, when it reaches it's final approved form, will merely point to this one. Any detail will be hammered out here, leaving the gateway article of the former Libya to merely point the way. There ARE people there, if only, as you have said elsewhere, in smaller towns sustained by ancient oases. However, if the Fezzan label is a problem, these villages can be designated any way you want. The fact is, even villages of a few hundred people have a governing body of some sort. And in bombed out America and Europe small enclaves have risen from the ruins to become "nations." The villages in this area, just to survive, would be not much different. No "vestige of a state," per se, but some sort of co-operation would be alive, if not well. This article is about whatever an editor is willing to make it, subject, of course, to the comments and suggestions of the whole community.

SouthWriter 04:40, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

.....That is exactly what I mean by making things hard to read, and difficult, at best, to comment on. I've made it possible.

Again, giving me no credit at all for compromise. How typical of you. Not that I, given your past and present attitudes, ever think you'll do it. Just amazing that you entirely fail to ever notice the fact, is all.

Again, even I'm saying that there is some people in the area. But the mere concept of a state is ridiculous. And you continue to perpetuate it.

No, you're killing off your own argument by directly changing it from one post to another. Not compromise, but arguing with just as much fervor a point nearly the exact opposite as your original one.

That you can claim that states are not going to expand on their own over time is entirely without any meaning. And, being something that you have completely ignored in the past, not a shocking one. Moreover, on the original map they are only a tiny distance from the cities. To say that they wouldn't go there makes entirely no sense at all.

For the love of.... I have not once said anything about "5,000" people. That was Fed, not me. My arguing has been consistent.

Tossed Aside - as in they quit being discussed, more or less because Caer quit talking about it? Or did you not notice that?

You failed entirely to comment on a large portion of the posts, and even added something which aided my argument. We've been over this, and I'm not the only one that felt/feels that way.

Have a look at those definitions. Note, the fourth one. Here, I'll quote it for you:

"To convey a false image or impression."

See? No deception. Add to that the fact that if someone says a statement that is not true, even if they do not know it to be so, what are they called? A liar.

I'm not being arrogant in the least. I'm right, and have support in that position. It's called being correct, not "arrogance. But, I suppose by now I should expect lines like that from you.

Nor have you admitted that you were wrong. Flip-flopping sure as heck ain't that.

No, that's not what the article says, even now. And, as I've said but you've glossed over, the Libya article at this time goes far beyond that.

Small villages and towns do have governing bodies - something called "elders," "mayors," "chiefs," or what have you.

What on earth are you talking about? About the only article in those regions that is as you describe would be Slab City. The rest all form from cities, or surviving governments. And, have not lost anywhere near as much of their population, especially in this manner, as former Libya has/did.

Again: These groups don't cooperate, as has been shown repeatedly in history. Best you can manage is small trading routes.

The article is dead. And, once again, the review agrees with that.

Lordganon 07:19, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Objections to marking as obsolete? Lordganon 14:26, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

No--Smoggy80 18:18, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

My apologies, Ganon, I was not aware that statements containing more than two sentences, separated into paragraphs, are hard to read. I will try to remember to use bullets and/or indentations from now on.

Please, since I am obviously a senile old man, demonstrate where you have compromised, Ganon. I have tried to be civil in these discussions, but your attitude stinks. I know I cannot change you, nor do I want to, but for the sake of the community, it would be nice if you were a bit more civil when responding to those with whom you disagree.

A certain congressman was called down by his own party in the US House for calling the president a 'liar.' Why was this? It was because though he might be able to show the information is false, he cannot prove that the one speaking the information intentionally meant to decieve. To "convey a false image or impression" has to do with the use of information, even if true, in such a way as to give an untrue 'image or impression." It is used in advertising and is why "truth in advertizing" laws are on the books.

Of course I have not admitted I am wrong. To continue to argue once I realized I was wrong would be the same as lying. You have not made your case, but Caer and I have conceded. You continue that all our concessions are not enough. You insist on defining all the terms even when it is pointed out that other interpretations are clearly possible.

So as to more easily follow this response, some context:

Article:"[T]he area has shrunk to be defined as the surviving oases in the midst of the desert south of Cyrenaica. The area was home to many larger towns that saw much destruction with the fall of the Libyan government. No survey of the area has been done to determine the population, but most authorities assume that it is probably no larger than five per cent of its known population in 1983 of over 200,000."

Discussion:Actually, this article only states that the Fessan is a geographic area redefined somewhat from its original area. The Libya article, when it reaches it's final approved form, will merely point to this one. (SouthWriter)

No, that's not what the article says, even now. And, as I've said but you've glossed over, the Libya article at this time goes far beyond that. (Ganon)

I am sorry, Ganon, if short sentences apparently cannot convey enough information for you. And please, note all the words I carefully did write. The population has been reduced to a proposed 10,000 people for the whole region. The region has at least ten towns just in the strip between the deserts.

I clearly state "when it reaches its final approved form," not the article "at the present time." So, please, don't disagree just to disagree.

Would the villages in question be at "war" with each other? I know you are not saying this, but you imply that they would not co-operate to survive. The local governments, like towns everywhere, would be in communication with each other and co-operate. This is not a "nation," as you continue to call it.

In closing, to Ganon and to the community, this is a most definite objection to summarily marking this proposal as obsolete. Thank you for your time.

SouthWriter 22:35, March 20, 2012 (UTC)

Your posts, especially when you get pissed off, have almost no layout to them. You quote sections, and reply to them, in the middle of other people's posts, use bullet forms, use excessive indents... you've done it all at one point or another. Use normal paragraphs, in a single post, so everyone can actually read and follow it, like you normally do, and all are happy.

Good Christ, you want to know where I've compromised? Try reading the posts. It's pretty obvious, if you actually bother to look. Not new that you don't notice, of course.

Every time I try to keep things decent, you go in and start this trash again. Really getting old. I've been civil the whole time - and the posts you made here, this last time? Not even close to being civil. Not remotely.

South, those congressmen were lying in those claims, or too fired up to know better. Moreover, the first one to do was chastised by the other party, not his own. Irrelevant, overall, and not something I'm going to argue with you about.

Fact of the matter is, in that context, it is very possible to lie without intent to deceive. Advertisers, notwithstanding - that is called "scamming."

To quote you, from earlier: "As you point out, I have "flip-flopped" on some points, but that is my admitting I was wrong."

True, as I said, it is not "admitting you were wrong" to flip-flop - which this most recent statement of yours also indicates. But, on the 13th? You sure said then that you believed that to be admitting that you were wrong.

Again: I have made my case. Many times. You're choosing to ignore it.

The use of the word "authorities," and with the phrase "Arab Remnant" indicate that some form of state does exist. At best, it needs to be adjusted.

Moreover, the Libya article does not say anything about the region. Just as the review required of it. But, before it was made to comply? It without question said the opposite of what you just stated there.

Scare resources, excess population, outright fighting? Along with a clear statement by myself that they would trade on some level? At best, some trade - and not co-operation like you've been referring to.

And ignoring all of that? There's nothing here to do an article on, really.

And so, I ask again: Any objections to marking this as obsolete?

Lordganon 09:05, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

Once agin, its a No from me--Smoggy80 15:58, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

As there have been no objections i'll mark it as obsolete, i'll leave it on here for one week, just in case there are any objections--Smoggy80 17:46, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

United Federation of New South Quebec

I just made this as a proposal, a small federation rising from anarchist South Quebec. Just wondering, how do you make a page in 1983: Doomsday official? MattiasWestby 01:57, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

You need to pass the proposal process.

Matt, I'm all for new contributors to the timeline, but.... this is not even remotely possible, and contradicts all of the articles in the area. There's no way it could possibly graduate.

The region, until a couple of years ago, was entirely under the control of the Lawrence Raiders. And now, under Canadian control. That is, of course, after having been more or less entirely depopulated, and having been fought over.

Matt, reading over the timeline would do you a world of good, I think.

As for this.... anyone object to making it obsolete?

Lordganon 04:06, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

As it contradicts established canon articles, no--Smoggy80 13:23, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Just a word while I'm in the neighborhood (see below). Though this is highly improbable, and the scope of the article -- a "United Federation" indicates quite a force to squeeze in to the area -- the concept of aboriginals banding together in the area may work on a smaller scale. It may be too soon to just move for obsolescence, but as it now stands it needs a lot of work. --SouthWriter 04:23, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

As stated, South, it really isn't possible in any form - it contradicts everything already in the region.

Even the natives part is off - the only Iroquois in the region are on reserves right around Montreal. More or less a write-off.

So.... I ask again: Objects to marking obsolete?

Lordganon 06:17, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Revolutionary Republic of Liberia

Nation in former Liberia--Smoggy80 16:59, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

does anything else needed to be added to let it be graduated?--Smoggy80 14:36, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe fill out the infobox some more? And a flag/coa? Lordganon 06:52, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Flag and CoA added, bits added to information box, anything else you can think of?--Smoggy80 14:26, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Don't believe so. Lordganon 14:58, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

In that case, any objection to graduation?--Smoggy80 14:59, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to have the president of the RRL go a tad 'batshit crazy', backdated to about five years. Anyone got any ideas of insane things he could have done, he's already built an airport despite there being no aircraft in the RRL. Any other ideas would be greatly recieved--Smoggy80 16:17, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Confederation of Socialist West African Nations

Founding members are the The Republic of Upper Volta and The People's Republic of Benin--Smoggy80 16:18, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure this qualifies as an objection, but why would these nations choose to form this organization? Marxist-Beninism could become a strong ideology in a post-Doomsday world, but what would these countries gain through this? The Benin and Upper Volta article says that they have reasonably good relation with WAU. Why wouldn't they just seek to join WAU, a larger, better established organization with clear political and economic advantages? Also, why would this competing organization be established on the basis of ideology? Other than blatantly emulating CAMC, I see no reason why they would form this type of organization. Caeruleus 08:16, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

The CAMA is different, and has declined membership because of geography.

Marxism-Beninism is a much more workable version of communism. For nations leaning that way, in this region, it makes some sense.

The WAU is on record as barring these types of states, especially these ones. Even the slightest glance at the WAU article would have shown you that.

Lordganon 06:24, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Although this group and the African Marxists are close in ideology, Beninism is not very similar the Marxism after the 20 years or so to morph the policies into something more workable in west Africa. The CAMC may want to trade and work closely with this group, but not join with them as they are still too different.

As for the WAU these two nations do not meet any of the WAU guidelines due to their governmental structures--Smoggy80 10:33, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

As i've never really written a page like this, has anyone any ideas for what needs adding to this page?--Smoggy80 17:59, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

If it helps, my East African Community page is similar in type to this. Beyond that, what kind of ideas do you want for the article? Stuff to write or things more related to the direction of the organization? Caeruleus 19:47, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

While he's wrong about the comparison - his page still has problems - there is a ton of similar ones in the Organizations category that work very well for ideas. Lordganon 01:00, March 20, 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone think of anything that I can add to this?--Smoggy80 10:45, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

No, looks pretty good to me. Objections to graduation? Lordganon 06:52, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Republic of Inner Banks

This is an article by an ambitious and energetic young man going by the user name "God Bless the United States of America." We call him GB for short. He is very young and just learning the ropes, so let's all try to help him in this first attempt at a full article in 1983DD. This is a small isolated community on the coast of North Carolina. It needs help so as not to run all over what we know about Elizabeth City and the Outer Banks (OB being primarily "mine" so far). SouthWriter 14:07, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks South for getting the word out, well anyone can edit the article, I see it as a chance to be another collabertive article for the senior editors to join in to, and allow us young bloods to help. God Bless the United States of America 03:18, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

So what's going on with this article? Lordganon 22:50, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Is GB even around anymore?BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

LG inadvertantly 'scared' GB away soon at the end of August. He played a map game or two until mid-September, and then, I'm guessing, he went back to school. As for this article, I did some rewriting on it, and he invited everybody to edit as they wished. LG and I once had to save the article from unwanted changes by Outer Banks resident "Alexanders," but I guess the article is "mine" by defalt. What changes or additions do you guys suggest to get it moved to "stub" status? SouthWriter 04:32, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Far as I can remember, all it really needs is to be done to be graduated. For stub status, any history at all would likely make it good for that. Lordganon 05:31, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, here it is, a little history that I hope will be enough for now. I know it's been a long time coming, so let me know if it has any kinks in it. SouthWriter 03:00, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Much better. Objections to graduation as a stub? Lordganon 06:48, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

United Federation of Cities

This is a Star Trek related nation that ImperiumGuy and I have created. This is my first proposal to Doomsday. It is located along the Missouri-Iowa border, because when I checked, there were no nations there.

I feel bad because I created a Star Trek nation (well, it was his idea, mostly) instead of a Star Wars one, which would be much better than Star Trek. Oh well. I hope it graduates to canon. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 21:45, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

Guys, as I've said before - heck, I've even told Imp this - the current maps are not entirely up to spec, and I'm waiting until one of the current wars is over to upload the new version.

Almost all of the area on this map is either part of Lincoln, or Hannibal. And, the remainder was more or less terminated by the strike on St. Joseph.

As for the rest... guys, this makes no sense, whatsoever. The Star Wars one is possible because it's a tiny, tiny, spot, in which they are the only inhabitants for a great distance. This is.... well, the exact opposite of that.

As such, I really have to ask: objections to marking this obsolete?

Lordganon 07:38, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

LG is somewhat right. As currently written, this article is unrealistic and contradictory to canon. That being said, there is room for a few entertaining articles in this TL. If you guys want to keep the article, I would suggest you relocate it and downsize it. If you're aiming for comedic irony, place it near the Star Wars nation. If not, place it anywhere not claimed by another nation. It can work, but it must be small and follow canon. Caeruleus 00:26, March 26, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Caer, place it near the Star Wars nation if your striving for an irony effect, although I think this is a pretty pointless addition, to be honest. ~Arstar

Well, I would want ot have a small expidetion from the UFC into New York and they would make contact. It would be interesting to see how a meeting would play out. :D Imperium Guy 21:22, March 27, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that wouldn't make sense. It also wouldn't addres the main issue: the article as is violates canon. You need to physically relocate the nation. The UFC can exist in a former suburb of NYC for example. An expedition from its current location is both unrealistic and contradictory to canon. Caeruleus 21:36, March 27, 2012 (UTC)

How does it violate canon? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:07, March 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, that was me. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:10, March 27, 2012 (UTC)

It's too close to Lincoln to be feasible and, frankly, it doesn't make much sense. It's too big and too populous for the whole Trekkie thing to work. Like I said before, relocate it and downsize it then it would be more workable. It can be bigger than the Star Wars article, but no larger than a single town at most. Caeruleus 23:13, March 27, 2012 (UTC)

I think there's, what, twenty, twenty-five people? Right now I'm trying to figure out where we can move it to. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:16, March 27, 2012 (UTC)

Not even "too close," Caer. It's actually entirely within Lincoln and Hannibal.

As it stands right now, the content makes little to no sense. I mean, the Star Wars one makes little, but it makes far more sense than this.

As for a location.... somewhere in New Rochelle, maybe? Would make an interesting foil.

Lordganon 00:49, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

...Figured that nothing else would happen. Objections to marking it obsolete? Lordganon 23:52, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

Epirote War

Hinted-at Greek move into the Southern Albanian dictatorships. An addon, if you would, to the Second Yugoslav War. Lordganon 01:06, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Done. Objections to graduation? Lordganon 09:58, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

None from me, and if no other objections are noted, it can be graduated on 1st May--Smoggy80 16:18, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Freedom Square Attacks

Attacks by Vidinites in Smolyan. Part of the ongoing Balkan conflict. Lordganon 02:26, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Believe that does it. Any objections, or ideas to make it a bit more.... bloodly? lol Lordganon 10:59, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

Federal Agreement of the Federation of Liberia

The agreement signed by the founding nations of the Federation of Liberia--Smoggy80 18:37, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

Federational isn't a word...call it the Federal Agreement or something. Caeruleus 18:52, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

He's right - it is most decidedly not a word. Lordganon 01:06, March 30, 2012 (UTC)

Of course, now it just sounds... well, really weird. One "Federation" too many. Lordganon 14:39, March 30, 2012 (UTC)

There's nothing more to add to this page until Lofa joins in 2014, ok to graduate?--Smoggy80 15:01, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

This really shouldn't graduate until the Federation article itself does, Smog. Call that an objection to timing, not to the article itself. Lordganon 09:01, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Can this be graduated along with its parent page of the Federation of Liberia?--Smoggy80 14:15, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Federation of Liberia

Nation in former Liberia--Smoggy80 18:41, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

As I noted on its talk page, I really have to doubt this one. After decades of fighting, the warring states of former Liberia have only just recently signed a peace accord under pressure. Why would they do this? Lordganon 01:19, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Will do some research on tribal make up of Liberia, also make relevent changes to shape/size and make up of Federation--Smoggy80 15:19, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

So i've added sections in about tribal make up, I have also changed it so that the agreement has been signed but the Federation will not take full effect until 1st Jan 2013. Also that Lofa will not join till 2015.--Smoggy80 10:43, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone think of anything I can add to this page to get it graduated?--Smoggy80 12:36, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

As there have been no objections noted can this be graduated now, as I cannot do it myself would somebody be kind enough to graduate it for me--Smoggy80 14:15, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

You did not ask for objections, Smog - you just asked if anyone could think of anything to add. Graduating is something done on Sundays(ish), really, too.

Objections to graduation, anyone?

Lordganon 05:38, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Tamahaq

Nation in Southern Algeria/Northern Niger/Southwest Libya--Smoggy80 11:36, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Anything else needed to get this article graduated?--Smoggy80 17:38, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

You have overstated the involvement of the Toubou people within the borders of this nation. Most Libyan Toubou are in what is now controlled and claimed by Egypt. There are some Toubou in what is left of Murzuq, though I am not sure which side of the border that is. Logically, I think Tamahaq should include all the area in the inhabitible land between the deserts. SouthWriter 03:06, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

How have I overstated the involvement of the Toubou? they joined late? there are very few of them and they have no power in the government?

The border has been already agreed with the editor of Egypt, the remaining section of uncontrolled Libya should be divided between Egypt and the Greeks.

Any other objections to graduation?--Smoggy80 12:19, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I point of my objection is that it appears that all of the Libyan Toubou join the nation of Tamahaq. I see that you have changed the Tebou People page to decimate the Toubou in the former Libya so as to leave a remnant traveling to the Ghat district on the far side of Libya to join the Toureg there. I checked the co-ordinates of the agreed border and it effectively has Egypt claiming every bit of the remaining population of the semi-desert including the oases town of Awbari, mentioned in Wikipedia as a base town for the Libyan Toureg. The town of Ghat is the only town in western Libya that appears to be the only home to the Toureg as they moved over the border.

The map of the Toubou people shows that all of them dwelt in what is now claimed by Egypt. If I understand what you wrote in the Tebou People article, these people completely abandoned the desert southeast for Egypt and Tamahaq. Egypt is a stretch, but I can believe that. However, would not others have joined their kin in the villages of the Fezzan though? Those villages are completely controlled by Egypt now, but when they were settling in 1998 these villages were "up for grabs" and to the west quite some distance from the Algerian border.

I would suggest that the Toubou tribes are properly part of Egypt, though some would have joined Tamahaq in opposition to what they may have considered an 'invasion' by Egypt.SouthWriter 18:15, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

To quote the Toubou pages many headed east into Egypt, some stayed and survived the droughts of 84-89 and since 1998 the few that are left joined the nation of Tamahaq.

Therefore most moved to the territory of Egypt (prob around Aswan area) before the expansion of Egypt into former Libya territory, the rest stayed where they were, survived for several years on their own and then that territory was incorporated into Tamahaq.

The map needs redoing as in ATL there are significant populations in Sudan and Egypt.--Smoggy80 15:42, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I figured they would have migrated before Egypt moved westward. This still leaves the villages of the Fezzan. There was a significant population of Toubou among them, and they remain in the land now controlled by Egypt. Are you saying that absolutely no Toubou remain in these villages, or that the villages have been completely abandoned. The Egypt article seems to indicate that there were at least "small chaotic settlements" found there in 2006. Granting that Egypt got this far (I lost that debate), these settlements are where the remainder of the Toubou from southeastern desert would have ended up.

In the proposed Libyan portion of Tamahaq there are no discernable villages other than Ghat. The nomadic Toureg might move into some uninhabited areas temporarily, but they would seek oases around which to resettle. Where are these oases? I found one on the road to Awbari. That's it. If the agreed upon border with Egypt holds, the majority of the Toubou that moved to the west will be in the villages mentioned above rather than being resettled in Tamaraq lands. SouthWriter 16:42, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

If they are in Egypt then its up to the Egypt editor to claify, but I would say most in Fezzan are deserted, some small settlements with possibly a few Toubou, but not many, mainly Berber and Tuareg.

The area in Tamahaq is mostly abandoned apart from:

• Ghat, which is a small oasis trading town of maybe 3500 people,
• Ubari, a small oasis town of 1000 people,
• Tajarhi, a small oasis town of 500 people,

That is why the border with Egypt is a straight line, there are no settlements, no rivers, nothing but sand and rock.

There was no point in arguing with Egypt over desert. So me and LG simply drew a straight line border, its possible that now that the weather has sorted itself out and getting slightly wetter that some Toubou could be moving back to their villages in either Tamahaq or Egypt.--Smoggy80 15:28, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Ghat, of course, is near the Algerian border and clearly in the new nation of Tamahaq. However, both Ubari (also spelled Awbari) and Tajarhi fall in the area of the Fezzan east of the border in land controlled (claimed) by Egypt. As far as the Egytian editor clarifying this, you have adopted the Tebou People, so you have to account for them all. Getting them to Ubari makes sense, but the settlement at Tajarhi would probably be abandoned in favor of much larger Qatrun (pop, 4500 in OTL, probably at least 1000 in TTL). Qatrun is definitely a Toubou stronghold with a good water supply. They have a small leg of desert to transverse to migrate to Murzuq or Ubari, so they probably would stay put for the most part.

As for Ubari, it is pretty well self-sufficient with a significant lake. Its population would not have suffered as drastically as Sabha based on that alone. Today the town has 35,000 people in it, or possibly 20,000 in 1983 (a rough guess, based on OTL programs in the 80's and 90's). Are we to expect a 95% mortality rate down to 1000 people? I know we've been down that road as well, but if we assume that the Egyptian expansion did not reach quite that far (plausible, especially if Tamahaq claims it "first"), then it would not be included in the "small chaotic settlements." Another point in its favor is that it did not contain Qadaffi's tribe as Sabha did. In OTL it was held by the rebels (National Transition Council) and apparently anti-Qadaffi.

In the least, the Toubou people would remain "Egyptian" if the line remains across the desert to the west of Ubari and Tajarhi. The only Toureg city besides Ubari in all of southwest Lybia is Ghat (with a lot of desert around it!). You can possibly negotiate more land (since Ganon is going by what you and others have written) and claim both Ubari and Tajarhi/Qatrun. Your original idea of the 16 E line works well. If not that, then the 15 E would suffice. 14 E cuts off Tajari/Qatrun but retains Ubari if you go straight north to 29 N. It all depends on what you think Egypt should control. If I were Tamahaq's leadership, I'd keep all the villages of the Fezzan, no matter how small. But whatever the case, to retain Ubari and the other villages, the border needs to move. SouthWriter 21:01, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Ubari had a population of just under 10,000 in 1984. Rough coordinates place it at 26 north, and 12 east - which is west of the border, and well within Tamahaq.

The towns of Tajarhi and Qatrun both lie east of the border.

Lordganon 00:11, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification on the 1984 population. However, though the rough coordinates fall just west of the border, the actual coordinates, 26.58 N, 12.76 E, is about 30 miles west of the straight line between 23,14 and 29,11. There is an airstrip near the rough coordinates, but no village. Some clarification as to the exact boundary is needed. Ubari is a main center for the Toureg, so it should be part of Tamaraq. --SouthWriter 10:22, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Ubari may have been a main centre for the Toubou in OTL, but after the exodus to get away from the droughts in the Doomsday world it may not be now, if there is a problem i'm sure moving the north west border point of Tamahaq/Egypt one degree further east (i.e. 29, 12 rather than 29,11) wouldn't be a problem, it's about 70 miles or so, just need to agree it with LG.

Plus that would make Murzuq very nearly a border town between Egypt and Tamahaq--Smoggy80 12:35, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

The lake at Ubari is spring fed and in the desert. A drought to the south would not effect them very much (they don't get rain anyway!). The exodus, though, might actually make the town a destination for the Toubou that do migrate. Moving the northeast border one degree east will put the line right down the middle of Ubari, not Murzuq. The move at the 29th parallel is about 59 miles, not 70. I think you are thinking of the distance of a degree on the equator. Moving 2 degrees would put Ubari about 40 miles inside of Tamahaq. Marzuq would be the closest thing to a border town then. You might want to leave the boundary line going through Ubari to increase it's importance as a regional population center. It would probably be better, IMO, to make the border deviate from the straight line to make the town fully in Tamahaq, though partitioning the town might be good for relations with Egypt. 96.37.241.49 19:00, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

All right, I see the problem here. South, you misread the spot where the line is. Plus, Ubari is at 26°35′N 12°46′E, not 26.58 N, 12.76 E.

It starts about halfway on the small, tiny, border Chad has with Libya, and goes northwest from there. Passes through roughly/in the region of (25,14), (27,13), (28,12), and (29,11). Doesn't go within a hundred miles of (23,14).

Here's the image I drew up to show smog before, with a couple extra lines of longitude/latitude. I also put Ubari on there, roughly, in a dark blue square.

Ubari is inside of the territory of Tamahaq by a large margin.

Lordganon 00:35, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

So with that problem resolved, how about graduation? or is anything else a problem?--Smoggy80 16:00, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

Seems like there is none. Any objections to graduation? Lordganon 22:12, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Lesotho

Article on the country post doomsday. GunsnadGlory 19:00, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Pretty much done. I my add some finishing touches, but stuff has been written about this article before, and I don't want to accidentally violate canon and get into a month long argument with LG (no offence intended) Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 19:00, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

...There is virtually no history from after Doomsday. Lordganon 22:10, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Hows about now? Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 16:37, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Better. Lordganon 01:50, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Sooo... it has been a hell of a lot more than a week, LG. What's happening?? Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 17:33, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

No one has asked for objections. Nor does "better" mean "good enough." Lordganon 20:52, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

<sharp breath intake> Ok, then. Objections? Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 17:31, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Guns, you mention a civil war - something major in the history of a nation - but glance over it, among other things. The history is short, besides. Yes, there are objections. Lordganon 20:58, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Hows about now? Guns (talk) 12:24, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Much better, though the layout leaves a fair amount to be desired. Lordganon (talk) 06:08, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

... Is that an objection? If so, how? Guns (talk) 06:11, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Not an objection, per se. Just something you should adjust. Lordganon (talk) 06:23, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Detonation

Article on a rock band formed in 2006... GunsnadGlory 19:57, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Pretty much ready for grad, just needs a few finishing touches. Objections?Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 18:25, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

Looks good, Guns, but I can't help but say that you're taking the concept album idea a bit too far, imo. No net objections, mind. Lordganon 07:27, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

...Point agreed to. Not changing anything, because I have no clue exactly how to do that without removing most of the article. Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 16:27, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm.....

Change the years, slightly, and make the last album that you have them listed as releasing being the one in production. Shuffle the rest accordingly. You could maybe get away with adding another, then. Between "The Unmade" and "Guns and Glory" would be ideal - you can even write it off as being an introduction to the new lineup.

More likely, you could get away with combining a couple of albums. For example, you could likely merge "Success is Failure" and "The Unmade" together in some form, and the same holds true for "Guns and Glory" and "The Freezing Inferno." Would be a fairly minor change to the content.

Something else, Guns - well, two things. First, it's too many albums overall, too fast, at least at the end. Even if they form one story, you still have them doing three of them in a year. That's just not realistic, and would kill their sales besides. Second.... well, there is literally no possible way that these albums could have such a large number of songs. You really need to cut the number of songs on some of these albums in half.

Lordganon 20:02, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

I'll change the dates, and trim the songs.

'Guns and Glory' may seem narcissistic, but i couldn't help myself. Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 16:29, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

Didn't even notice until you said that, lol. It's actually not a bad name for an album. Lordganon 08:48, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Dates duly shuffled. Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 18:47, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Good, good - now the number of songs and number of albums, lol. Lordganon 00:03, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Damn, knew I forgot something. xD Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 18:57, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

MOOFUAFUAFUAFUA NOTHING CAN STOP THE GRADUATION OF THIS ARTICLE NOW!!! Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 19:03, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Guns, virtually all of those concept albums have at least twenty songs. The most you're ever going to find on a single one is 15, and most range form 10-12 - and concept albums normally have less because of longer songs. And to produce that many, that fast, they can't be double albums.

I know you put a lot of work into the song titles, but it's just not possible to have that many.

Lordganon 00:41, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

Are you for real? Take a look at Pink Floyd's The Wall. (My Favorite). 26 songs. NOT a double album.

IN addition to which, they do it often, and the reason bands took so long back then was because of touring... which these bands are going to do WAY less of, due to bad transport and few surviving English speaking countries. Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 18:51, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? The Wall is a double album. And if you don't believe me, look at wikipedia - it list four sides. As in two records.

"The Wall" took Pink Floyd a year to make. Without any touring. And that's with it already having largely been written, too.

The songs need to be cut down, Guns.

Lordganon 22:09, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Done. Capital x and all that. Any further objections? Or should I say, what are your further objections? Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 19:11, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Guns, you still have 17 songs, or even more, on some of these. As I said before, it needs to be about 12 on each, or the number of albums cut down overall and more spaced out. Simply put, there is only so much space on these things for songs. Lordganon 08:10, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, fine. Forget the songs, I'll only list the albums. -_-.... 98.14.126.83 18:41, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

It's actually a far, far, better article with songs. You just need to have a realistic number of them.

And, on another note, the Grammies don't exist.

Lordganon 09:17, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but if you look at the Pink Floyd article on WP, for instance, they only list the albums.

GD, LG. *takes sharp breath* (about the Grammies)

Anything other than this? Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 19:28, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

...And those don't exist either. Make it so it just says they've won awards.

Actually, that's because each album has its own article that says that. As I said, it is better with the songs here. Most were good names, too.

Lordganon 20:15, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

It just occured to me to check the history of CDs. The media was introduced in 1982 with a Billy Joel Album released in Japan in October (to help sell Sony's player -- quite expensive, at that). In March of 1983, 16 titles were released in the US by CBS. Music preduced in a post-DD world would likely still be in the form of audio tapes (maybe digital by then) and maybe even still in vinyl LP's (easier to produce than CD's). Music tapes were usually 60 minutes (though they came in longer formats), while LP's were about half that. I'd say an album would therefore be limited in how much it would hold based on the older technology.

That being said, I think Guns should include the songs as well as the albums. Otherwise, the reader does not get the full affect of what the band was accomplishing. As for the awards, perhaps something like the World Music Awards founded in Monaco in 1989 of our time line would have formed in this time line. The American music community was devestated so the Grammy's would have ended, but the world would not stop producing music. Perhaps the music industry of the ANZC would take up the awards under a new name, or even the same name. The word "Grammy" is short for "Gramophone" which was invented by Thomas Edison and improved by Alexander Graham Bell. As such, the concept certainly could be preserved in the successor of America.

Perhaps an award with a new name could be introduced if the industry did not want to show disrespect to what had been lost. If the old technology is still honored (or even still in use), perhaps the "Golden Disc" or "Goldie," would be the coveted award. Whatever the case, a separate article is probably in order to introduce whatever award this is to be. SouthWriter (talk) 23:56, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

More or less the jist of what I've been saying. Lordganon 01:09, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

... Ok.

Fine then. Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 19:37, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Right, so, further screwing up, i visited the history page...

AND I CAN'T RETREIVE THE SONGS.

help! Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 19:41, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I fixed it for you. You had to undo the space removal edit right before that as well. Remember to trim the number of songs and remove the award name, as well. Lordganon 21:37, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Done. Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 20:27, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Still too many songs. Fifteen songs apiece ain't going to fly. Lordganon 20:51, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I'll fix that, but <cough>

Guns, virtually all of those concept albums have at least twenty songs. The most you're ever going to find on a single one is 15, and most range form 10-12 - and concept albums normally have less because of longer songs.

<cough>

some only have 13, others have 14, like 3 have 15, out of seven. Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 17:35, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

You aren't getting the point, at all - you're picking out the 15 from there, even though the rest of it directly counters what you are arguing. Fifteen is something that almost never happens. And, as stated, your guys do concept albums. Which means less songs.

And on another note, you've got both too many songs on the "Gods of Rock" album, along with songs that never existed atl. Maybe concentrate less on "The Wall" too.

Lordganon 20:56, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

So I trimmed the songs, ok. Highest has like 13, lowest some 10. Ok with you?

... Which of those songs never existed atl? And hey, the Wall was 1979, thats within limits! Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 18:07, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Err.... no, you really haven't trimmed the songs.

Your albums have 14, 15, 18, 14, 12, 11, 11, and 11 entries, respectively. Highest is far over 13. Nor do any have 10. And considering that one of those eighteen on the one album has three parts, and another has two it's actually 21. Even being covers that's ridiculous - they are making other music, remember.

The Final Countdown and Smells Like Teen Spirit were recorded in the late 1980s, and early 1990s, respectively. And almost all of the songs are from "The Wall." It's like they copied half of that album and re-released it.

And, you really probably should just remove that map, too - just because somewhere speaks English doesn't mean that these guys are automatically going to be popular there.

Lordganon 02:17, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

LG, before I edited the Gods of Rock there were 17 songs, of which 5 were by Pink Floyd. Even if you count Another Brick as 3 seperate songs, thats is 8 out of 20.

Ok, never mind. Fixings will occur.Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 06:12, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

No, there was eighteen. And I just counted that again, too. And, again, 21 total. Of which nine were Pink Floyd.

Now, the total is 13 on it, 6 of which are Pink Floyd. Better total.

The other numbers are better now, too.

The map, as well.

Lordganon 07:21, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Map gone. *sob*.

Anything else... Vir prudens non contraventum mingit 09:02, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

The albums are better, though you may want to have a look at the last section - it looks like you stopped writing before finishing the info on their musical influences. Lordganon (talk) 22:10, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Finished.

<sniff> it has been almost 2 months since I asked first for objections... I'm sorry to see this go.

Jk! Objections?

Guns (talk) 06:15, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I believe that satisfies mine. None from me. Lordganon (talk) 06:24, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

United Communities Interview

Article created by Arstar. Mitro 03:42, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how I can make this work at the current moment as it was one of several dozen projects I started that aren't appropriate to the direction my projects took over the past year. Any objections to me making it obsolete? Arstar 01:12, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. It's good, just needs a little work. As with a lot of things you left, it's on my list of things to finish, and I'll get to it at some point. Lordganon 10:15, December 4, 2011 (UTC)T

I'm going to try to make this article work by starting it over from scratch. Arstar 01:51, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'm making this article obsolete, fyi. Arstar 21:44, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Malawi

Proposal for the African nation of Malawi, by Gold. Lordganon 00:21, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

About 3 weeks ago I massively updated my Malawi proposal. I think it is ready for graduation, but I will make changes if someone will give me some good suggestion. Also, I may need to remove the part about Joyce Ntila Banda because I am not sure if she was living in Malawi in 1983. Wikipedia said she lived in Kenya during the 70’s, but it doesn’t say when she returned to Malawi. I assume Joyce moved back to Malawi right after she divorced her first husband in 1981.Goldwind1 01:59, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

About the only thing accurate there is that Banda does seem to have done as you say.

Gold, the article is far from completion.

The history reads rather close to otl. And, it's a mess besides.

None of the stuff about marijuana would have happened. It is not legal there today, nor has it ever been, and you vastly overstate the impact a loss of outside medicines would have.

Even more so, however, Chakufwa Chihana wasn't even in Malawi in the early 1980s. From the late 1970s until the early 1990s, he was either studying in Europe, or teaching in Botswana.

Past all that, there's virtually nothing in the infobox, and the article is lacking for information overall.

Lordganon 09:02, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Lordganon for telling me that Chakufwa Chihana was living outside of Malawi during 1983. So, I replaced him with Bazuka Mhango. He should have been practicing law in Malawi during 1983.

Also, Lordganon, I am pleased that you said that the part I wrote about Banda was accurate. But, I’m not sure if you were complementing the section I wrote about Hasting Banda or the part I wrote about Joyce Ntila Banda.

Also, I still believe that a cessation of medical imports and the destruction of local pharmaceutical plants during the civil war would lead to the legalization of marijuana. However, I am willing to change the marijuana bit if ten to twelve suggest I change it.

Goldwind1 01:22, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

....You referred to the latter Banda in the last post, Gold. Thought it was obvious, lol.

There are not, and have not been, really any such plants in the area. Not today, not then. Most medicines have to be imported - and the vast majority of the population has no access. They wouldn't legalize it, and the concept that they would is, quite honestly, a bit silly.

Rest of my points, aside from the president you removed, still stand, as well.

Lordganon 09:47, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

I guess you have not read the economy of Malawi Wikipedia page because; its section 1.1 is about Malawi’s pharmaceutical industry. According to Wikipedia, Malawian pharmaceutical companies include Malawi Pharmacies Limited and Kentam Products Limited. I don’t know when Kentam Products Limited was founded, but Malawi Pharmacies limited was founded in 1967. If you still don’t believe that Malawi has a pharmaceutical industry, I have provided the address for a business profile for Malawi Pharmacies Limited the address for the Wikipedia page for Kentam Products Limited below .

Kentam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentam_Products_Limited).

Malawi Pharmacies limited (http://www.tradeindia.com/Seller-1949519-Malawi-Pharmacies-2005

Limited/)

Goldwind1 01:34, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I've read it. Though I have to say that you really didn't. There's a big, fat, source there, if you'll notice.

Kentam was founded well after DD, insomuch as it matters. The other two, bet on the same.

It is explicitly stated that those companies only produce a tiny amount of anything. All of them have a primary role as importers and distributors, not manufacturers. There is virtually no domestic market. Which you've missed entirely. And, even today, they have almost no capacity to manufacture anything, and they don't. Nor is there any research facilities. And that's the present - it was far, far worse in 1983. And what is made is something that only the elite can have.

They don't have any "plants." At all.

Fact of the matter is, the concept of them legalizing it is ridiculous. And you've no ground to stand on.

Lordganon 08:59, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

As lucrative of a product as "Malawi Gold" has become in our time line, and its long history in the country (though illegal), would add a level of intrigue in a backward country when official aid from Europe and America ends. I do not know if it would be legalized for its medicinal purposes, and I doubt if there would be a demand for the product as a medicine in the rest of the world, but the rise of it's importance in Africa might be something that would work. SouthWriter (talk) 03:55, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

I have given my Malawi Proposal a massive update since the last time I received any feedback. Thus, I am once again ready to ask if my proposal is ready for graduation.Goldwind1 (talk) 00:01, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

...No, you've not added much of anything to this.

There's still barely any history, and now you've got a reference to some sort pf trade organization that in no way exists.

Lordganon (talk) 00:29, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

I have deleted all mention of the South African Free Trade Organization from my Malawi proposal. However, after we get all of our proposals graduated, Caeruleus and I plan on making a page for the South African Free Trade Organization. I have also added a little more content to my Malawi proposal and, I hope you will graduate it as a stud please.Goldwind1 (talk) 20:25, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

No, you have not removed them, nor did you do much to the history, or repair the layout to be more like the standard. Lordganon (talk) 03:50, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

I have fiddled with the info box, edited the post doomsday section, and added a new section about the Malawian civil war. I hope these changes are enough to get my Malawi proposal graduated. If my proposal is still not acceptable, I would appreciate some advice on how to improve it. I would especially appreciate some advice about how to expand the history sections. Thanks in advance for any advice you might give. Goldwind1 (talk) 01:00, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Better history. Layout still needs work, and an overall cleanup is a must.

Gold, there's really not any advice I can give you, except to take it further away from otl.

Lordganon (talk) 06:45, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

I have recently edited my Malawi proposal. I hope managed Malawi proposal clean enough to be graduated.Goldwind1 (talk) 00:28, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

The military numbers need to be fixed. And, come to think of it, the parts about the "Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland" really should go, too. Makes no sense that they would want that "white" state back. Lordganon (talk) 08:56, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Per one suggestion, I have scaled down the size of the Malawian army. However, I have not deleted the part about the Coalition Party, but I have edited it to say that the Coalition Party is trying to create a Bantu dominated federation. I hope that these changes are enough to get my proposal graduated.Goldwind1 (talk) 02:52, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Not quite what I was getting at, Gold - change it to a goal of making a "Bantu" nation and not a successor to that "white" state. Lordganon (talk) 04:15, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

I have deleted all reference to the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland, from the politics section of my Malawi proposal. So, hopefully my proposal is finally ready to be graduated.

Goldwind1 (talk) 20:34, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

I think that takes care of any problems I had with it. Does anyone else have any objections? Lordganon (talk) 06:59, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

The editorial guidelines says, that after a person makes a requests for their proposal to be graduated, then they can delete the proposal banner after a certain period of time passes, if nobody objects. Last Monday, I got my Malawi proposal up to the standards of the people that had objections. So on Friday, I deleted the proposal tag ,because nobody gave me anymore objects. But, on Saturday, the proposal tag was back. Did, I jump the gun or, did I completely miss read the guidelines about the graduation process?

If I did not wait long enough for objections, what is the appropriate amount of time to wait before removing the proposal banner?

Goldwind1 (talk) 18:45, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you missed a very large amount of the process - and also that it is frowned upon to graduate your own articles, normally. Lordganon (talk) 07:35, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Rhode Island

Page for the former state of Rhode Island. CheesyCheese (talk) 17:02, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Is there anything else that needs to be added to this article? Arstar talk 17:18, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

A little more history would be nice, but we could probably stub this one. Would anyone object to that? Lordganon (talk) 06:39, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

Kerr Republic

Article created by Crimson. Mitro 17:25, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

So, where is this going, Crim? Lordganon 22:47, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation as a stub?--Smoggy80 15:03, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. There's nothing here, really, to graduate, and as it stands it's not plausible. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Crim, what do are you going to do with this, it's been over a year? I agree with Ganon here, it needs to be mostly in Vance county if it's going to succeed. Right now it's a skeleton in need of some meat. I'd suggest doing some research on Henderson, NC, to put some names to the characters. SouthWriter 02:49, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

He told me at the end of February that he'd be working on it "soon." Lordganon 14:36, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

All right, about had enough waiting on this one - he's promised more than once to work on it, and hasn't.

Any objections to making this one obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 07:31, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Martinsson Crime Family

A proposal of a crime family in Sweden. Still updating and working on it, doing my research. But for now it looks good for me for being official. Doctor261 18:48, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

What's the story here, Doc? Lordganon 01:36, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Is this a relevent article? it doesn't link with any others?--Smoggy80 15:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's relevant. Or will be when it's done, I assume, lol. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Seems like Doc's giving up on this article and the companion Bjorkman Crime Family article. Any objections to making them both obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 09:02, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

Avalon (1983: Doomsday)

This is an article I created to go along with Pacifica. The town becomes the name of the city-state that encompases the whole island known in our time line as "Santa Catalina Island." This city-state can stand alone if Pacifica fails to be canonized. SouthWriter 18:25, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Graduate as a stub or leave it until more work is done on it?--Smoggy80 15:15, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

As with Pacifica, wait until it's actually done. There's not even any content to this one right now. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

This going anywhere, South? Lordganon (talk) 07:30, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Figure since I asked about the one, I'll ask here too: Would anyone object to marking this one obsolete too? Lordganon (talk) 19:35, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

United Pacifica

Article by GB, in the Channel Islands of California. Needs a ton of work, however. Lordganon 03:46, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, this needs a ton of work. GB has asked me to oversee the development of this article due to his needing to concentrate on school work. I read the talk page, and the San Nicolas Island article on Wikipedia. The concept is challenging, to say the least. GB's only request is that it remain loyal to the CRUSA and eventually becoming a part of the USA. It seems much too small to pass as a state, much less a 'nation,' so it is going to have to end up 'attached' to some part of a willing Californian nation-state that joins the USA. I'm open to suggestions. SouthWriter 01:46, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Far as I know, the government at Placerville is the only one with any interest in the new USA, though that depends on how factions in the MSP play out. Lordganon 05:34, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

That's fine. That's the "California" that matters anyway, as far as re-establishing a successor state goes. I have done some work on the article, bringing early contact with Mexico (via a plane out of Baja) and the rescue of about a hundred refugees stranded on uninhabitable Santa Barbara Island. It's going to take a lot of work just to make the island produce crops. Anyway, I am up way too late already. SouthWriter 05:47, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the name of the article to "Pacifica (1983: Doomsday)" and the 'long form' is now "United Islands of Pacifica." As a result of this article, I am creating another article which I am inserting below as a new proposal.

Is this ok to Graduate?--Smoggy80 15:14, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

It's still not complete - large portions of it remain missing. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

All right, this has been sitting here forever. Any objections to making it obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 09:00, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

Pan-Chinese Summit of 2012

Page on the meeting of Chinese states discussing external threats and the need for more mutual assistance. Created by Canuck2012. Scandinator (talk) 04:26, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

As I've told Can before, this idea doesn't have much merit - list of reasons on its talk page - especially in this location. Lordganon (talk) 07:27, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

So... obsolete? The Royal Guns (talk) 09:19, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

Pretty much. Lordganon (talk) 10:05, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

Second Yugoslav War

The war that me and Owner have been planning for a while. Will be ongoing for quite some time. Lordganon 08:50, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Any progress in the war? If it has not finished yet, any idea when it will be finished?--Smoggy80 14:23, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Yes to progress. No to finish. I know when it will be finished, and it'll be a few weeks yet. Lordganon 00:39, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

...Think we are finally done. Objections to graduation? Lordganon (talk) 07:20, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

Leeward Islands

ECF Member State. Last one for a little bit, I promise. x3 Regentage 21:58, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Errr.... the ECF page indicates that the three states you have merged into this thing are rather separate, not one nation. Lordganon 00:00, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Remember Monserrat will still have been devestated by the volcanic eruption thats been going on since 1995, agriculture on the scale shown in the article would be impossible--Smoggy80 16:43, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

All right, nothing has happened with this one in months, and it isn't really canonical at all, either.

Any objections to marking it obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 09:37, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

People of Eden

Article by me. Ofa. Have fun. GunsnadGlory 18:58, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

One problem, Berlin was intact after DD--Smoggy80 15:56, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Nothing has been done with this thing in months.

Any objections to marking it obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 03:47, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Zambia

There isn’t much information about what happen to Zambia after doomsday, so I felt this would be a good topic for me to write my first 1983 doomsday proposal about. ~Goldwind1

Graduate as a stub?--Smoggy80 15:31, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

No. Almost no content/history, and what is there is.... well, so full of various mistakes that it's a little disturbing. Lordganon 20:21, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

How about now?GunsnadGlory 18:54, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Almost nothing has been done to it. Still not even close. Lordganon 23:48, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I fixed the spelling and what grammar errors I could catch in a once over. It would help if Gold has some idea what is so "disturbing." It looks good enough for a stub unless there are issues about contradictions with canon or glaring implausibility problems. SouthWriter 01:04, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

The fact that it was so bad in the regards you repaired was what was disturbing, as I clearly said before.

That being said, I have to object to even stub status - it's still pretty bad, imo, and isn't referenced anywhere in canon articles, so there's not even a link to the timeline right now.

Lordganon 02:03, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I am glad that people are starting to notice the effort I am putting in to expanding my Zambia article. I don’t think my post doom’s day history violates any canon information. In fact, the only mention of Zambia, was in the Zimbabwe proposals. Anyway, I would appreciate if Lordganon would politely tell why he hates my Zambia proposal. I am willing to consider any advice he would tell me about improving my idea. After all, I followed his advice about removing the Katanga line from my first draft. I also decided against making Zambia a dictatorship, since Lordganon told me he thought a dictatorship would not last long in Zambia. Goldwind1 14:31, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

What is it with people putting words into my mouth around here? Sheesh. Gold, I did not use the word "hate" anywhere.

Gold, the simple truth is that you've a lot of work to do still. Sections are incomplete, others have little content, there is no infobox, and the whole thing is pretty run-on. Plus, what history there is is basically otl in most ways.

Lordganon 22:54, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I know my post doomsday history is basically OTL history moved up by 3 years, but it was pretty much all I could think of without have Zambia descend into civil war or dictatorship. I am thinking of having Zambia invade the Soviet kingdoms of Angola along it’s boarder, but I feel I need permission from the owner of the Angola articles first. So, in the mean time, I tried making my article interesting though the use of the sections on international relations , transportation, economy, and the Union Party. Also, I don’t know how to make an info box.Goldwind1 14:03, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

I've asked the editor of the nations in former Angola about them in the recent past (see section Countries/Regions/Politics above), and heard nothing back, I think if you want you may be able to adopt the Soviet Kingdoms of Angola, just ask the editor and if you don't hear anything back in, say, a week, you should be ok to adopt. Then you can do what you have planned for them.--Smoggy80 14:12, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

They aren't on the border - there's a distance between them.

For him to do anything with the SKoA, you're going to have to ask here. Off hand, I'd say you couldn't.

Moving up by three years is basically the same as otl. No way that works.

Lordganon 00:26, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Mwanawasa had his first stroke in 2006. If every thing is moved four years earlier, he would have lived through his 8 years in office. It is hard, then, to determine his successor since he had 4 VP's in 6 years in OTL. There is a very good chance, though, that his first VP may have been Christon Tembo, a man chosen in OTL by Chiluba in 1996. Mwanawasa and Tembo had a history together, so it is possible. That would put Enoch Kavindele in line for Mwanawasa's second full term. Kavindele could be challenged by Rupiah Banda in 2008 to determine the present president.

All this, though, depends on the political climate as the presidents come and go. Would Chiluba have been ready in 1988? He was a powerful union boss at the time, so it is possible. If he ran for president in 1987, then that would change the union politics a little. These things have a way of "butterflying," but backing up three or four years is plausible if done carefully. SouthWriter 04:03, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

I have decided to significant changes to my Zambian history section. The history section now says Kenneth Kaunda alienated himself from the rest of the UNIP, by refusing to listen to their suggestions on how to fix the economy and how to peacefully deal with riots. Thus the UNIP teamed up with Christon Tembo to overthrow Kenneth Kaunda. I hope this scenario is plausible.Goldwind1 (talk) 01:37, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

...As of this post, you've done no such thing. Lordganon (talk) 01:51, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

I have given my Zambia page a major overhaul. I believe it is ready for graduation.Goldwind1 (talk) 22:36, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

You really should add a small section on the military. Might be a plan to group all the history under one section, too. Keep the current titles as sub-titles - will be cleaner. Lordganon (talk) 09:29, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

Much better. About the only other thing I can think of is that because of the situation in eastern Angola, and Bostwana's isolationism, they aren't going to be in contact with Namibia. You should also mention the Soviets Kingdoms to the west of Zambia in some form.

That being said..... any objections to graduation?

Lordganon (talk) 09:09, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Lordganon, it’s been a week since I requested that my Zambia page be graduated, and nobody else has objected yet. I will add a mention of the Soviet Kingdoms of Angola if you want me too.

Goldwind1 (talk) 13:44, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

As a rule, I graduate articles on the first Sunday after a week has passed since objections were asked for. That'd be tomorrow.

Yes, you should add some sort of mention of the Kingdoms. Given proximity, there'd be some sort of relations - more so, mind, these would be violent in nature. Heck, I'd expect there to be some people in Zambia calling for the government to move against them in force. I'm sure that Katanga, and now Botswana, wouldn't be opposed to joining that one.

Lordganon (talk) 03:28, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

Lordganon ,I have added a metion of the Soviet Kingdoms in the milatry setion. So  will please you gruadate my zambia page Goldwind1 (talk) 22:05, December 10, 2012 (UTC)

2016 Olympics

Figured that the 2016 Games needed an article. Going to flesh it out. Lordganon (talk) 11:21, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

Think that will do it. It's about as much info is on the wikipedia entry for the Games, anyways. Objections? Lordganon (talk) 09:49, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

Illegal Drug Trade

Page detailing the illegal substance trade in the post-DD world. Arstar talk 04:11, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

...I suppose that we could probably graduate this as a stub. Objections? Lordganon (talk) 08:57, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Phoenix Sons

What should I add? David Rain 16:26, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

More history, maybe more info about the albums. Lordganon 22:44, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Kinda looks a touch abandoned. Would anyone object to putting this up for adoption? Lordganon (talk) 03:47, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Adoption Banner added. Lordganon (talk) 23:52, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

...And for nothing. Would anyone object to marking this obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 08:58, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Touhou Project

Another proposal by me. Discusses the setting and characters of the Touhou Project manga. For the most part its done, may add some more/edit things out if need to be. -Kogasa 2013年1月01日 03:17:04 (JST)

Looks pretty good. About the only thing I'd say should be added is some sort of overall history of the project - how/why it was developed, etc. Lordganon (talk) 08:53, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Added some background. Also added that he founded his own company to sell his manga, not sure if its possible though. -Kogasa 2013年1月02日 19:50:31 (JST)

I'm sure that he could have done that.

More or less what I wanted to see added - though maybe add some sort of production history as well? Something along the lines of the book title, and the year of publication, etc.

Lordganon (talk) 12:19, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Added all the manga published and such. Also added with some that there were other writes either helping along (Forbidden Scrollery) or mostly created by someone else but ZUN still holds involvment with it (Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth). Since in OTL, he mainly supplied the stories and lets the artists do the work and such; and I'm sure in TTL he would find a few locals/good manga artists to help him out in doing some of the work (but since ZUN is a much better artist and such in TTL, he wouldn't need that much help, but still). Hope it's okay. -Kogasa 2013年1月03日 02:10:22 (JST)

Very well done, Koga. Don't see anything missing, etc. anymore. Lordganon (talk) 03:40, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! So...are there any objections? -Kogasa 2013年1月04日 20:17:49 (JST)

2014 Winter Olympics

Article on the next Winter Games. Lordganon (talk) 12:58, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

I do believe that that is about it until next year. Objections to graduation? Lordganon (talk) 11:48, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

None that I can think of, when will taking names for the list of participating nations?? Verence71 (talk) 19:20, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Sometime around the beginning of next year I'll be adding whichever states seem reasonable, like with the last Summer Games. That reminds me - I need to add my info on that from my files to the talk page of that games at some point.

If you've got something requested, or whatnot, just leave it on the article talk page. If it helps, Woodbridge is on my lists as having been at the Summer Games, with a couple of teams and several individual athletes.

Lordganon (talk) 04:25, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

Woodbridge General Election 2013

Taking place as a result of a political scandal from last year Verence71 (talk) 18:40, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Finished the page now so is it OK if I graduate it?? Verence71 (talk) 19:06, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

No concerns from me - but give it a few days to see if anyone has a problem. Anyone have any concerns? Lordganon (talk) 04:27, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

The Republic of Susquahanna

I have a proposal for the Republic of Susquahanna.  It would be a city state on the Susquahanna River.  The nation would encompass all of former Danville, Riverside, Sunbury/Sellinsgrove, Washingtonvill, Elysburg, and Bloomsburg.  Is that cool to start.  I do have an idea of structure too.  204.186.79.98 18:02, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

I swear, this anon is driving me nuts. Keeps making these articles, and it's obvious that he hasn't read anything we have on the area - this proposal contradicts all of our articles on Pennsylvania, just like all the ones that he has written. He "asked" if that was a good idea on here after he started the article - nor did he use the proposal template. I suppose that, at least, he's stopped vandalizing articles in the process.

Anyhoo, objections to marking this obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 08:51, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Republic of Montour-Columbia

Hey, Lordganon, I am new here.  I have tried to make edits in the past, but they were all removed.  I would like to form a nation from around my hometown in Central Pa.  As far as I know from your map, it does not look like the area is claimed.  I know Wilks-Barre and Scranton were destroyed, and Northumberland county was claimed by State College.  I wanted to name it the Susquehanna Valley Republic.  It would be a small nation with only around five or six towns.  Would that be okay? FYI- Great idea! 70.44.255.21 22:15, February 20, 2013 (UTC)daeseunglim

Could I put an edit onto State College to show that any expeditions found some survivors of the city-state of the Republic of Montour-Columbia? 70.44.255.21 01:33, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Won't work, Dae.

No, you cannot edit State College.

Guys, any objections to just marking this obsolete? It contradicts State College to some degree, and wholly ignores patterns.

Lordganon (talk) 13:20, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

I was under the assumption that State College did not reach that area for a few years. The government collapsed after a few months. If you would clarify the exact start date I would appreciate that. Thanks.Daeseunglim (talk) 16:47, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

It is indicated in both State College, and in other area articles, the extent of survivors. This isn't one.

Moreover, the situation in the area after DD more or less means that it's impossible for any such authority to arise, even for a short time. Nor would any such event - i.e. the establishment of a new state - happen so fast.

Again: Objections to marking it obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 12:09, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

Andhra Pradesh

A joint article in construction about the Indian remainder state of Andhra Pradesh by Me, Guns and LG. Almost complete, hopefully will graduate soon! :D Imp ^{(Say Hi?!)} 18:40, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Think that about covers things. Objections to graduation? Lordganon (talk) 09:32, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Nay. :D  Imp ^{(Say Hi?!)} 13:10, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant

A proposal about the history of the nuclear plant in Long Island. It is small right now, but I have plans to expand it. This includes ideas of an underwater cable connecting Block Island to Long Island, and works to maybe add wind turbines to the site (as in OTL). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:56, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Would anyone be opposed to graduating this as a stub? That be ok with you, Nuke? Lordganon (talk) 09:05, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

BioNet Incorporated

Proposal for an energy technology corporation! Kotatsu (talk) 17:22, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Tech is far too advanced, and the founder didn't survive DD. I've left that, and more, on the article's talk page. Lordganon (talk) 06:07, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Responded, heh. Kotatsu (talk) 16:12, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

No progress since July, and still has all of its problems. Any objections to marking it obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 09:17, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Northwestern Arkansas

A proposal detailing the history of a failed Fayetteville-based Arkansas provisional government. This proposal also talks about several smaller survivor states in the region Goldwind1 (talk) 04:13, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. Don't forget to look at the Joplin, and Hot Springs articles when writing this. Especially Joplin, given its closeness, and its authority starting to encroach on small parts of the area by now. Lordganon (talk) 09:54, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

I think this article is ready to be graduated.

Goldwind1 (talk) 00:00, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Not looking too bad, so far.

You need more current history, though. There's really just the one line right now. What about the other groups?

Lordganon (talk) 11:31, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

I add some more current history. Is this enough? Goldwind1 (talk) 00:41, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

...Gold, you more or less just moved things around and didn't add much of anything. It also only covers one part of the area. Lordganon (talk) 12:24, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

I have added some more information about people in Northwest Arkansas outside of the Fayettevile Metro area. I hope this enough to get my article  graduated Goldwind1 (talk) 01:29, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

I do like the new ideas - and the mildly morbid addition.

Still, you need to add a bit more "modern" information. A few of the groups you have on here do have it, but a large amount of them do not. Even a line in each would be good. Just need to answer the question "what happened since then?"

Lordganon (talk) 01:59, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

I have added some modern information to  to the dogpatch gamg, the Walon ,and the  Outer Spring Dale Farmers Defense Alliance. I  now belive that all of my groups have on line about recent information except the nomabs. I now think  that my NorthWest Arkansas page it is ready to be graudated Goldwind1 (talk) 02:15, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

There is no way a gang could raid Joplin from that far off. And, more importantly, there is no such location as "Dog Patch, Arkansas." It's not ready, Gold. Lordganon (talk) 08:38, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

There was was a town of Dog Patch Arkansas in 1983. It changed it name to Marble Falls in 1997.Goldwind1 (talk) 12:20, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Not all that accurate - the name of the post office was changed to Dogpatch, not the town. For that matter, it was also not "Dog Patch" but Dogpatch.

None of this was done with local consent. And no one in the region would have entertained the thought of it being referred to by that name.

Needs to go.

Lordganon (talk) 08:40, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

...Not at all what I meant. Put it back in, but change the reference to "Dogpatch, Arkansas" to be a reference to the "Dogpatch USA" theme park. Lordganon (talk) 07:45, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

I have restored the Dogpatch  section.. I aslo added a part about Abner deing in 2012. The Dogpatch Gang is now led by his deputy shmoo.Goldwind1 (talk) 22:06, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Far better looking. Any objections, then? Lordganon (talk) 11:49, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

It has been 2 weeks  since I have finished my Northwest Arkansas page. Nobody has made any objections so will you please graduate my article, Lordganon? ~Gold

Second Manchurian War

Proposal by Vlad, and I think maybe Oer/Arstar too? Lordganon 19:03, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct, Arstar and I are the principal creators of the idea and Oer helped as well. Vladivostok 14:43, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

So yeah, I'm basically done with the article, I might add an image or two at the most. Anyone object to graduating the article? Vladivostok (talk) 08:34, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Only issue I have with it is the link Mscoree just added - so, basically none here. Lordganon (talk) 09:55, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

New Vegas

Yank's resurrected this article.

Problem is, there's no way at all a state here is possible. I swear, we have like four obsolete pages on things around there, lol.

So.... any objections to marking it obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 09:30, April 10, 2013 (UTC)

International Federation of the Red Cross

I have decided to make the IFRC its own international body. Much like the LoRCS and ICRC both operated at the same time, often in competition, the IFRC and the ICRC/RC both are in existance at this time. Reximus55 (talk) 05:52, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

...Are you kidding me? This thing goes against canon. I already even told you that when you tried to shove it in our faces by overwriting the Red Cross article. Any objections to marking this obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 10:51, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Would you mind outlining the conflicts with canon, so I may fix the page? Also, I didn't appreciate your block, since I failed to see what was wrong - besides not just shutting up, which appears to be what you wanted.. Reximus55 (talk) 09:29, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure this is already covered by the LoN... so there's only one conflict and that's its existence.            Flectere si nequeos superos- Acheronta Movebo! 

More conflicts than that - it basically goes against all of our medical/aid articles to some degree or another.

As for the block? You went and, despite being warned, undid my reversion of your changes to that article. Has to be consequences for failing to listen to warnings.

Lordganon (talk) 11:38, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Ashford Handicrafts

An article on a New Zealand based manufacturer of hand powered textile tools and woolen products. ~‎Goldwind1

Gold, I can honestly say that New Zealand, while having little to no imports, would not really be effected. The Wool industry is pretty big there, imo. NZ has nearly eight times as many sheep as it does people - and Australia has more than three times as many as there is people.

While their products would be more in demand post-DD globally, I have to doubt that demand would be all that much higher in those two areas.

Lordganon (talk) 06:37, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

OK I guess I have overestimated the impacted of the loss of textile imports on the sales of Ashford Handicraft's spinning wheels. I think I have an idea on how to salvage my article on Ashford Handicrafts. I'll scale down the increased sales of spinning wheels and have Ashford Handicrafts start producing power looms and sewing machines in the 90's. I did some research on the industrial textile machinery manufacturing industry of Australia and all but one of the country's firms were based in either the Sydney, Melbourne or Perth metro areas. New Zealand had two industrial textile machinery manufacturers but none of them made power looms, so I believe Ashford could fill in the gap with the help of a reverse engineering firm.

Goldwind1 (talk) 23:33, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Without those three cities, the demand is also far lower. Wouldn't help their sales in Australia, really.

Their sales would slightly up in New Zealand, true. But most of them, and the demand for their products, would be elsewhere. India would probably be most of their business, for that matter.

Lordganon (talk) 10:34, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

I have updated my Ashford Handicrafts proposal a few days ago and I believe It is ready for graduation Goldwind1 (talk) 21:00, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

You added more history, good. But what of the company itself? Its products? Its Operations? Needs more content, I think. A logo too, for that matter. Lordganon (talk) 03:47, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

I believe my Ashford Handicrafts proposal is ready for graduation.Goldwind1 (talk) 15:23, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

You know... I do believe you may be right. Any objections to graduation? Lordganon (talk) 11:34, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

The Internet

A little project I started research on, but never got around to finishing it. It could serve as something to flesh out later down the line. Vladivostok (talk) 20:00, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this as a stub? Lordganon (talk) 11:32, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

2011 Philippine presidential election

My first attempt at an election page. Please Bear with me as the Philippine electoral process is very convoluted. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 11:15, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this as a stub? Lordganon (talk) 11:33, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

European Broadcasting Union

I've just created the article European Broadcasting Union. Let's see what happens.Halliwellroad (talk) 19:08, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

...A good effort, Hall, but a lot of it isn't valid. I've left notes on its talk page. Lordganon (talk) 15:18, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

...And still nowhere. Any objections to marking this obsolete? Lordganon (talk) 11:33, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Remington Firearms

Page detailing the corporation Remington Firearms during and after Doomsday. Enclavehunter (talk) 19:51, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this as a stub? Lordganon (talk) 11:33, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

World Without Doomsday

Another article by Godfrey Raphael. It's about a book atl - no relation to Obama's otl one - by someone from Reading. Really, in my opinion, should get a name change, and the PoD in the "book" should change from a reverse of the timeline's PoD. Lordganon 22:32, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Actually quite a clever idea, having Jon Gosselin seek his moment of fame without the big family and the TV show he had in our time line. Supposing the PoD as being Doomsday would be the obvious choice. It would mean Gosselin would have to assume the politics of Reagan would have succeeded in ending the cold war as we know it did. I'd change the officer's name to not reflect the then name of the American author and his wife, though. On the other hand, how much would a survivor in the US know about pre-Doomsday Russia? It would probably be just as good to assume an American point of view since apparently the real cause of the war does not seem to ever have been discerned. Americans know that they did not fire the first shots, but that's about it. Gosselin was a pre-teen in 1983, so most of what he would write in 2010 would be from research, not memory, concerning the days before the war. --SouthWriter 04:00, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

What I meant, more so, was that this is exactly what happened otl, or nearly so. While it would be possible to be what the PoD is in the "book," I just have to doubt it, you know? Lordganon 05:36, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

GR has changed the article to be about an anthology. Now it is in need of synoses of stories within the anthology and an account of how the book is received within the city-state (and beyond). I think he may be fishing for suggestions (I know I would!) but without a little more to the article it won't be ready fro graduation for a while. SouthWriter 00:38, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

...Kinda think that GR has abandoned this. Would anyone object to putting it up for adoption? Lordganon (talk) 23:53, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Totally forgot to put that banner up.

Way I figure it, as an anthology, we may be able to do this as more of a community page, where we all contribute stories.

Lordganon (talk) 03:42, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating this as a stub? Lordganon (talk) 11:33, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Alexander McCall Smith

an proposal about a Botswana ambassador by me  Goldwind1 (talk) 12:52, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

I feel that my Alexander McCall Smith proposal is ready to be graduated.Goldwind1 (talk) 00:43, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

Find it mildly doubtful that he'd still write that book series. Things have changed a ton from otl, remember. Not that he wouldn't write something, just that it would be a little different. Maybe change it from "detective" to something else.

You've got a large time gap, there. He'd be doing something, Gold.

Lordganon (talk) 12:40, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

I made changes to my propsal. Does any one think it is ready to be graduatedGoldwind1 (talk) 23:54, August 13, 2013 (UTC)

Better, but the second point still remains. What'd he do in that decade gap? He'd have done something in it if the government thought him important enough to evacuate. Lordganon (talk) 12:39, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

I think I sloved the decade gap prombleGoldwind1 (talk) 13:34, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

Err... No, you have not. It is still there. Lordganon (talk) 14:07, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

>OK, Making Alexander the chancellor of the University of Botswana didn’t solve the decade gap. Will you please give me some suggestions on how to solve the decade gap problem.Goldwind1 (talk) 14:25, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

More like you missed the decade in question entirely, Gold - from DD until the mid-1990s you have nothing for him to do. Lordganon (talk) 11:55, August 15, 2013 (UTC)

I made some more changes. I belive my proopsal is ready to be graudauted.Goldwind1 (talk) 13:11, August 15, 2013 (UTC)

Better, but why did you remove that bit that was already there?

And, you missed the point, to some degree - you haven't answered the question of why they would want to evacuate him, and whatever role in the governing body that he would have at that point.

Lordganon (talk) 10:18, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

I feel that I anwsered the question of what Alexander role in the governing body would be, by making him anpresidental advisor. Is my proposal now ready  to be graudated.Goldwind1 (talk) 13:47, August 16, 2013 (UTC)  

While that did solve my prior issue with the article somewhat - you still haven't covered why they would have moved him out of there - something else came up.

The Botswana article, using some poor phrasing, states that the government of Botswana more or less disappeared under the flow of refugees - there was no evacuations. Doesn't seem to have really been anyone leaving the capital, really.

The University of Botswana only had one campus at that time, in the capital, with more nowhere in sight. Smith would have been in the capital, without question.

So, I really have to conclude that this article isn't possible, Gold.

Lordganon (talk) 12:19, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

I believe that the 1983 Doomsday Botswana article is not 100% clear about whether there was an evacuation attempt in Gaborone. The sentence “The majority of the government was subsequently removed with the exception of vice-president Peter Mmusi, who was visiting the northern provinces at the time.” could either mean most government officials were evacuated or they all died in Gaborone. I think we should consult with Vegas adict to find out if he thinks any people would have made it out of Gaborone. I believe that if the evacuation did happen, then after high government officials, western educated intellectuals like Alexander would be next on the list. I am sure that the Francistown government would see people with PHDS to be assets that help Francistown survive. I also remember reading on the 1983 Doomsday Botswana page that work on the Francistown campus of the University of Botswana was underway when Doomsday happened.

Goldwind1 (talk) 02:07, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, Gold, but that statement is actually pretty clear, especially with the content that follows it. That VP and a small section of the government survived because they were not in the capital - no one else in the government got out. The word "removed" is poor phrasing, but it is rather clear - the government, with the one real exception, died there. And if the government didn't, then there sure wasn't an evacuation of anyone else.

Far as I can determine, there really wasn't any work going on in Francistown with regards to the university, though a teacher's college associated with it seems to have existed there.

So, overall, I have to conclude that this isn't plausible, Gold.

Thus... any objections to marking this obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 14:25, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

I have one last card that could possibly save my Alexander McCall Smith proposal. I believe that Gaborone falling into chaos in only a few days after Doomsday is implausible. None of the countries surrounding Botswana fell into chaos immediately after Doomsday. It took until 1985 before South Africa and Zimbabwe fell into Civil War. Thus, I believe that refugees would not start swarming Gaborone before 1985. This probably means that Peter Mmusi would probably not be in north Botswana during the fall of Gaborone. Thus, I believe that the only way that Peter Mmusi would have become the leader of the Francis Town government is if he was evacuated there from Gaborone. If Gaborone was evacuated, then I believe there is a small to modest chance that Alexander made it to Francistown. Do you think my complaint against the plausibility of the Botswana page is strong enough to warrant putting it under review?Goldwind1 (talk) 00:30, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Nowhere is it stated that things fell apart that fast in Botswana. What it is saying is that once the refugees started, they overran the capital rapidly. The only timeframe given in the article is that the south was wholly cut off by late 1985.

South Africa was in a state more or less like that quite a while before 1985, imo. 1985 only meant things were more out in the open and martial law finally declared (that last part is the only stretch, as it would have surely happened before then).

The region around Pretoria and Johannesburg was where the worst fighting, rioting, squabbling, etc. occurred in South Africa - you'd have had armed refugees fleeing long before things openly broke out.

Botswana is a very logical destination for these refugees. Late 1983, early 1984 would be when it starts in earnest.

Mmusi being in the north is perfectly possible. Heck, far as I know he was usually up there.

There was no evacuation, Gold. And Mmusi ordered the southern provinces cut off, as well. Combine that with the country being mostly desert.

Overall, you have no complaint - you misinterpreted the article.

So, again: any objections to marking this obsolete?

Lordganon (talk) 14:10, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Regroupement des Gévaudan

Proposal about a survivor state by me. What do I need to do to be able to graduate it/make it better Mafia (talk)

Any objections to me graduating it? Mafia (talk) 00:58, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

Err... Local, it's nowhere near graduation. Compare it to other nation articles. Yes, many objections. Lordganon (talk) 12:33, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

No one replied... So I asked the next question Mafia (talk) 12:35, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

Is it done now? Mafia (talk) 13:32, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I believe so. Any objections to graduation? Lordganon (talk) 09:59, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Can I graduate it now? Mafia (talk) 21:54, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Graduated. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 13:44, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Wabash Union

Article created by Yank. Mitro 16:42, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Is this going anywhere? Lordganon 14:59, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

I'd be willing to allow someone to work the kinks out of it. I just have one request. I request that it is not to be annexed by another nation.

Yank 15:05, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

I suppose in light of that, and time passed, would there be objections to putting it up for adoption? Lordganon 05:13, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Put up for adoption. Lordganon 11:44, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Thought I'd leave a note here to say that this page has been adopted by a new user, Martin1983. Note, too, that he, despite the name, seems to have nothing to do with Owen. Lordganon 22:55, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

.....Or not. I undid all of that stuff he put in, as per policy. Lordganon 10:13, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

So...can we obsolete this? Mitro 19:48, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's still up for adoption. So, no reason to do that, I'd think. Lordganon 01:07, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

This article has been up in the air for a year and a half. Just because it's up for adoption doesn't mean we should keep it. Unless Yank works on it in the next week I think we should obsolete it. Arstar 02:09, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

The article is perfectly valid, and just needs to be completed. So, I have to oppose that idea. Lordganon 11:12, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

...8 months later it has still not been completed. Are there any objections to obsolete this? Arstar talk 22:44, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

Actually it seems rather finished. It could pass as a stub according to its author and after a throrough read-through I agree. Does anyone have any objections to graduation? Arstar talk 23:08, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry for not having done much to the article except adopt it and do some spellchecking. RL events have caught up to me and I haven't been able to think up of anything to add to it. I have no objections to graduation. Godfrey Raphael (talk) 16:28, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Still have to object - it gives no given explanation for why it survived, its politics, or, most of all, how explorers passing through the general region missed this entirely in the early 1990s. Lordganon (talk) 07:25, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Any objections to graduating it now? Yank 17:44, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

No objections here, Yank. What about you Ganon?  SouthWriter (talk) 21:00, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

The problem that I had with it has been more or less rectified, so no more objections from me, though I still would like to see some more recent history added. Lordganon (talk) 13:27, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Pepsi Cola

The same user asked about Pepsi, of course, so I did the same thing for that soda. SouthWriter (talk) 17:40, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, this one is more or less established in canon already. More a formality that it's here, really. Any objections to graduation as a stub? Lordganon (talk) 13:29, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Royal Crown Cola

A unregistered user asked about RC on Kola Grande's talk page. I set up the link and created a stub for anyone to build upon. SouthWriter (talk) 17:40, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, this one is more or less established in canon already. More a formality that it's here, really. Any objections to graduation as a stub? Lordganon (talk) 13:29, September 26, 2013 (UTC)