This page was made to help assist with the finalization of the National borders in the co-operative ATL, Rise of Roses.


I, the creator of the Rise of Roses co-operative ATL, Smallpox, will post here our final decisions, feel free to argue them on the talk page or by starting a new "dispute log" below.

Canada-Louisiana Border

  • Much to my chagrin, we will not make the border the 49th parallel and Louisiana will keep her full territory.


  • Since this one was a tie, I will use my powers as creator of this ATL to decide that Italy will keep the Venetian territories she had, but that the lower Venetian territory will be Yugoslavian.


  • the votes were close, but Oregon will become part of California.

Rupert's Land

  • The British territory of Rupert's Land laying below the 49th parallel will become its own state, most likely a Metis Republic, as that is the one said by most they would like to see.

Puerto Rico, Guam, Florida and Cuba

  • Puerto Rico will be part of Spain, Guam will be Japanese or Spanish, the United States will gain Florida via the "Florida Purchase" and Cuba will be independent.


  • Hawaii will be a Japanese puppet state, there is no way they could resist Japan, and Japan is more likely to conquer Hawaii before California.

American-Louisianan Border

  • The border will be on the Mississippi river.

Alaskan-Canadian Border

  • The border will be along the Rockies.

Territory Disputes

Canada-Louisiana Border

Might as well get this one out of the way as well.

For the border being on the 49th parallel

1.Smallpox 04:23, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

2.Fedelede 17:12, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Against the border being on the 49th parallel

1.Kareljanis 05:23, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

2.Mister Sheen 07:09, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Eastward Expansion 13:37, July 15, 2010 (UTC)


I personally do not agree with Italy having parts of Dalmatia, or at least territories so deep into it, Yugoslavia would probably not be happy with it.--Smallpox 02:06, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Dalmatia is just a strip of land gotten from the Thirty Years War. Plus they were Venetian territories before. Fedelede 02:10, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

I see, thank you for bringing this to my attention.--Smallpox 03:20, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

For Italy keeping Dalmatian territories

1. Fedelede 02:10, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

2. Kareljanis 03:16, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

For Yugoslavia getting Dalmatian territories

  1. Smallpox 02:06, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
  1. Eastward Expansion 13:37, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

For Italy having smaller amount of Dalmatian territory


Another thing about Italy: What about the Nice area?

For Italy to keep the Nice Area

1.Fedelede 17:17, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

2.Kareljanis 19:33, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

3.Smallpox 15:16, July 17, 2010 (UTC)

For France to get the Nice Area



The format I established is faulty in my opinion, so I won't use it here. Oregon needs to be independent or part of California. Please vote here.--Smallpox 01:25, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

For Oregon joining California

1.Smallpox 01:25, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

2.Kareljanis 01:28, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

3. Fedelede 01:35, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

For Oregon becoming independent

1.Eastward Expansion 01:28, July 15, 2010 (UTC) I doubt the Desert Hispanics of California would want some Englishmen and Russians in their country. I'm flexible though...

I thought we established that California already had a sizable white population?--Smallpox 01:30, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
I'm flexible!Eastward Expansion 01:31, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

2.Mister Sheen 07:06, July 15, 2010 (UTC) Personally I would rather give it to Canada than California, but I think independence is the best idea.

Rupert's Land

How is the "American" Rupert's Land going to work? (see this map)

Part of the United States


Part of Louisiana


Part of Canada



  1. Mister Sheen 07:09, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
  1. I was thinking that the Loisianians, British and Americans wouldn't be able to agree on who gets it, so they would just make it an Indian nation. Or maybe Louis Riel retreats here and sets up a metis republic.--Smallpox 07:12, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
  1. I was going to vote for part of the U.S., but an independent Native American nation sounds pretty interesting (especially a Metis homeland). Kareljanis 07:21, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
  1. I like the idea of a Metis Republic,but it should be slightly Fascist.Baconton 12:07, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
  1. why fascist? But the idea of a Metis Republic is interesting. Fedelede 13:24, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
  1. I propose the area is where Free Britain comes to lie. I'll have to change the page but no matter. Bob 09:39, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Puerto Rico, Florida, Guam, Cuba

If on this TL Spain is more powerful and the US is just a backwater, and the Florida Cession (and the Spanish-American War) happened after the Louisiana Purchase on OTL, then on this TL, Spain would have won the war. What would happen with Puerto Rico, Florida, Guam and Cuba?

To be part of Spain

  1. Eastward Expansion 13:37, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
  1. Mister Sheen 17:37, July 15, 2010 (UTC) I definitely think Guam should stay Spanish, and it could be used as a Neutral area for Japan and Australia to hold peace talks, and that kind of thing. I think Puerto Rico, Cuba and Florida might fight for independence in World War I, unsuccessfully. - Mister Sheen 17:37, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

To be independent

1.Fedelede 13:15, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

2.Kareljanis 19:24, July 15, 2010 (UTC) I can't really see Guam or Florida being independent, but I can see Puerto Rico and definitely Cuba. And to add, the U.S. could've made the Florida Purchase after Louisiana was turned down.

3.Florida should be part of the states, Guam could be Japanese, or be Spanish, maybe there is a Spanish-Japanese war, Puerto Rico can be Spain, Cuba can be independent.--Smallpox 19:48, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Ok when I make the new map, I'll use your idea Smallpox! Eastward Expansion 19:58, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

To be part of the US



On another note, the Kingdom of Hawaii was never annexed. What would happen to it?

To be part of California

1.I like this idea for some reason.--Smallpox 19:50, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

To be part of Alaska

To be part of Japan

  1. Eastward Expansion 13:37, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
  2. Mister Sheen 17:37, July 15, 2010 (UTC) I think it should be nominally independent; but in reality, a Japanese puppet state.

To be independent

  1. Fedelede 13:15, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
  2. Kareljanis 19:21, July 15, 2010 (UTC) I was actually planning an article about Hawaii where it's an English colony for some time
  3. Baconton 14:33, July 17, 2010 (UTC)

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