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1420 - 1429 Algorithms (Principia Moderni IV Map Game)

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1410-1419Algorithms1430-1439

A page for war algorithms conducted between the years 1420 and 1429 for the Principa Moderni IV Map Game.

Abbasid Invasion  of Cyprus

  • 1420
    • Pre-War
      • Abbasid Caliphate
        • Result: 16
        • Population: 7 (3.5 million)
        • Motive: 5 (religious)
        • Government: 7 (theocracy)
        • War exhaustion: -3
      • Kingdom of Cyprus
        • Result: 10.1
        • Population: 0.1 (50,000)
        • Motive: 7 (existential religious)
        • Government: 5 (elective monarchy)
        • War exhaustion: -2
    • Siege of Framagustra
      • Abbasids
        • Result: 4
        • Navy: 3 (100 ships)
        • Location: 4 (major city by sea)
        • Attrition: -3 (enemy coast)
        • Blunder:
      • Cyprus
        • Result: 3.5
        • Navy: 0.06 (2 ships)
        • Location: 3.5 (major city by sea)
        • Blunder:
    • Seige of Nicosia
      • Abbasids
        • Result: 14.09
        • Military: 6.09 (20,000)
        • Location: 8 (seige to capital)
        • Blunder:
      • Cyprus
        • Result: 13.8
        • Military: 1.8 (6,000)
        • Location: 12 (seige to capital)
        • Blunder:
    • Final result
      • Cyprus: 9.1 (casualties: 200)
      • Abbasids: 15 (casualties: 350 troops, 6 ships)
      • Result: Abbasids win 164%, taking both cities but not able to annex Cyprus

Discussion  

-You didn't add Cypriot defense and/or stats -Da Kaiser (talk) 02:40, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

Nor the naval force of the Hospitallers, Naxos, the Papal materiel aid etc. Callumthered (talk) 03:54, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

I believe Famagusta is currently a Genoese property, but I'm not entirely certain. Pink Floyd Hammer Flag - The Wall I'd rather be a hammer than a nail... 05:56, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

This algorithm is so wrong. The population of Cyprus is 50k in the algorithm, and I'm going to assume it is a Non-Feudal State. This means it can raise a maximum of 1k troops.

So please explain to me how Cyprus is sending 5k to defend Constantinople and still has 6k left to defend themselves             Reichsadler der Deutsches Reich (1933–1945)   The night is dark and full of terrors. 

I was under the assumption that I had a population of 75,000. And I took Fatmagusta from Genoa in the War of 1404. -Da Kaiser (talk) 14:22, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

I personally don't have a clue how much your population is. The algo said 50k so I assumed maybe it is 50k. Anyways, I think you might win this if your allies that Callum mentioned help out.             Reichsadler der Deutsches Reich (1933–1945)   The night is dark and full of terrors. 

Does the algo need to be fixed or not? cause Cyprus seems to have surrendered -Nate

In case it isn't clear, the hospitallers, Naxos, and Papacy are all fighting the Ottomans, not protecting Cyprus, although the Ottoman's 60 ships are not in the algo either -Nate

King Janus despaired, however Prince James may not agree. Also I'm fighting the Ottomans in a different war with my navy which is why the Abbasids made it to Cyprus. If my fleet was there even without my army, I could have won. My only real allies are Aragon and Rome. -Da Kaiser (talk) 03:38, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Gurkani Conquest of Gazaria [1420]

  • 1420
    • Pre-War Stage
      • The Gurkani Sultanate = +105
        • Population = +104 [Gurkani Population ~ 52 million]
        • War Exhaustion = -3
        • Casus Belli = +1 [No Connection]
        • Government = +3 [Iqta]
      • Republic of Genoa = +4.5
        • Population = +0.5 [Genovese Population ~ 250,000]
        • War Exhaustion = -0
        • Casus Belli = +2 [Non-Existential Threat/Defending Colony]
        • Government = +2 [Merchant Republic]
    • Siege of Theodoro
      • ​The Gurkani Sultanate = +43
        • ​Army/Naval Size = +45 [Gurkani Army ~ 150,000]
        • Location = +4 [Besieging Major City]
        • Great General = +0
        • Blunder = /
        • Attrition = -6 [Mountains]
      • Republic of Genoa = +4.8
        • ​Army/Naval Size = +0.3 [Genovese Army ~ 1000]
        • Location = +12 [Very Well Fortified City]
        • Great General = +0
        • Blunder =/
        • Attrition = +0
    • Casualties
      • ​Gurkani: /
      • Genoa: /
    • Final Score
      • ​Gurkani: /
      • Genoa: /
    • Result
      • /

Bruneian War/Bruneian Revolution(1421)

  • 1421
    • Pre-War Stage
      • Majapahit Empire and Order of the Enlightened
        • Result: 27.3
          • Population: 10.15 million (Total Empire Population); 7,105,252 (Core Empire Population) = + 20.3
          • War Exhaustion: 0
          • Casus Beli: +2 (Crushing Rebellion)
          • Government: +7 (Theocracy)
      • Brunei Sultanate
        • Result: 12.42
          • Population: 710,525 (Total Population) = + 1.42
          • War Exhaustion: 0
          • Casus Beli: 2 + 6 = 8 (Patriotic Rebellion/Survival)
          • Government: +3 (Iq'ta)

Java Sea Front

  • 1421
    • Battle Stage
      • Battle of the Java Sea
        • Majapahit Empire and Order of the Enlightened
          • Result: -2.4
            • Army/Navy Size: 426 ships (Total Empire); 298 ships (Core Empire); 80 ships (deployed, regular Majapahit); 5 ships (deployed, Order of the Enlightened) = + 2.5
            • Location: 0
            • Great General: 0
            • Blunder: -5
            • Attrition: N/A
        • Brunei Sultanate
          • Result: -4.1
            • Army/Navy Size: 30 ships (Total) = +0.9
            • Location: 0
            • Great General: 0
            • Blunder: -5

Borneo Front

  • 1421
    • Battle Stage
      • Fall of Kota Batu
        • Majapahit Empire and Order of the Enlightened
          • Result: +20 (PLACEHOLDER)
            • Army/Navy Size: 203,007 (Total Empire); 142,105 (Core Empire); 45,000 (40,000 deployed, 5,000 reserve, regular Majapahit); 10,000 (deployed, Order of the Enlightened) = +15
            • Location: +8
            • Great General: 0
            • Blunder: -3
            • Attrition: N/A
        • Brunei Sultanate
          • Result: +15.8 (PLACEHOLDER)
            • Army/Navy Size: 19,211 (Total) = +5.7
            • Location: +12
            • Great General: 0
            • Blunder: -2
  • Final Stage:
    • Majapihut
    • Cities Occupied:
    • Result: 31.3 (casualties: 7,000 troops, 5 ships)
  • Brunei
    • Cities Occupied:
    • Result: 5.5 (casualties: 16,000 troops, 10 ships)
  • Overall Result: 400% for Majapihut

Discussion

As previously mentioned, these are all placeholder results until a moderator arrives to fix them. Oh and the lack of attrition in Kota Batu is due to the location near the Brunei River, so.........I am unsure if that accounts as coastal attrition or not. I am also unsure about Casus Beli, regarding the Majapahit Empire and the Brunei Sultanate. Any errors? Tell me in here or chat. Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 14:08, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Could another 6 be added to my Causus Belli? I would say this would count as a patriotic revolt; perhaps the title "Bruneian War for Independence" is more fitting. --Orange (→My wall!←) 18:06, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

The reason it's a patriotic rebellion is because at the current era, Brunei is one of your vassals; this was a plan to gain independence. --Orange (→My wall!←) 18:15, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

And you are still dead already. Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 09:25, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

The Greek Crusade

  • 1422
    • Pre-War stage
      • Crusaders
        • Result: 28.28
        • Population: 8.14 million (Denmark: 800,000, Norway: 600,000, Ragusa: 100,000, Genoa: 500,000, Papacy: 1.5 million, Rhodes: 70,000, Thringen: 40,000, Naxos: 30,000, Aragon: 1.5 million, and Milan: 4.5 million) = 16.28
        • Motive: 5 (religious)
        • Government: 7 (theocracy)
      • Ottoman Empire
        • Result: 27
        • Population: 9.5 million (Ottomans: 6 million, Caliphate: 3.5 million) = 19
        • Motive: 5 (religious)
        • Government: 3 (Sultanate)
    • Battle of Geleta
      • Crusaders
        • Result: 41.15 + blunder = 36.15(see below)
        • Military: 96,500 (Aragon, 40,000, Milan, 10,000 Demnark: 1,000, Norway: 1,000, Thringen: 500, all others: 15,600) = 13.95
          • Note: currently 59% of total military. May be lessened as per religious war penalty if necessary
        • Navy: ~390 ships = 11.7
          • Note: currently 86% of total navy. May be lessened as per religious war penalty if necessary
          • Second note: the religious war penalty's size also highly depends on the location. Jerusalem and Constantinople are not equivalent and the technology is also differennt, making longer travels easier.
        • Location: 3.5 (major city by sea)
        • Attrition: -3 (coast)
        • Blunder:-5 (until we get official blunder I'm doing the worst case scenario for the winner)
      • Ottomans
        • Result: 43.1
        • Military: +30  [Ottoman Army ~ 60,000, Caliphate ~40,000] 
          • Note: For the record, the Ottoman turn post is actually sending 100,000
        • Navy: 9.6 (Ottomans ~250 ships, Caliphate 70 ships)
        • Location: 3.5 (major city by sea)
        • Blunder: 0
    • Final stage
      • Crusaders: 28.28 - 1.95 = 26.32
      • Ottomans: 27
      • Final result: Ottomans stalemate at 101.2% without blunder added and without Crusader penalty, so the Crusaders keep the city

Discussion

I have a great many issues with this algo but am not currently able to state them all at this time. I will do so shortly, hopefully tonight. I don't want anyone jumping to conclusions here. 

"This is not your grave but you are welcome in it." 21:56, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Ok, as I was saying earlier, there are some issues here that I think need to be addressed:

  • While my first objection was going to be the number of ships the Ottomans possessed, I now see that they have had a naval concentration for the last decade, so I recant that. However, that does bring into focus the issue of why they have such a large army alongside it. If they are a naval concentration and previous mods have said that 110,000 troops is the most the Ottomans could raise under an army concentration, I am skeptical they can maintain a large fleet and army at the same time. 
  • Secondly, why is the Ottoman army counted in this algo? This battle takes place in Constantinople/Istanbul, and as Bozi himself said, the Ottoman army is at the Balkan border, all 110,000 or so of it. Not withstanding the previous issue of size, it should be clear that the army isn't where the fighting is.
  • And if someone were to say "well, it counts the entire military of the Ottomans" then I ask why the entire military of the Crusaders is not counted as well? I doubt this will be an actual objection, but it merits a response all the same.
  • I am skeptical of the size of the Crusader's forces regardless of whether they are all counted or not. The current Papal navy is around thirty ships, yet the entire coalition is given a value of 32. This coalition, I might add, includes the Mediterranean nations of Ragusa and Genoa, both of which are at the height of their power and have long naval traditions. And those are just two nations of the nations involved. While I understand that the entire navy of every nation will not necessarily be involved, only 32 ships? Really?
  • The population of the Papal States is definitely not correct. Italy in total has a population of 14 million, and the Papal States owns most of the center, including major cities like Rome, Ancona, and Bologna. Definitely more than the mere 80,000 I am presented with. 
  • I believe the Teutonic Order needs to be counted in the algo as well, as I remember Eip saying he would support the crusade. If he said otherwise to someone else, please inform me. 

That should be it. I await objections. 

"This is not your grave but you are welcome in it." 22:42, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

  • The Ottomans have more ability to support troops than the crusaders because it is the one being invaded. That's why we have a Holy War penalty in the first place. It's not reasonable to send most of your military across Europe just to attack Muslims, but it is reasonable to deploy military which is already there due to the Siege of Constantinople. In fact, if Bozi was not navy concnetration he could send much more military, about 130,000. So 100K is actually reasonable. If you don't believe me, check out the OTL Seige of Constantinople, the Ottoman military was usually around 100,000-120,000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople
  • I will try to fix the population and troop numbers for the Crusaders, but I don't have information for all of them. Oct has claimed that he has a navy of 3,000 ships, which I find very hard to believe without a source.

Oh, I didn't mean to push that button!Oh, well leave a message I guess 23:34, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

  • Keep in mind though, that battle occured when the Ottomans didn't have a fleet of 252 or more ships. As per the concentration system, if one is strong the other must be weaker. Since the Ottomans are naval and have been for more than a decade now, the army must be weaker as a result, otherwise the system is broken. Scraw agrees with me on this. And of course, that is dodging the location issue, which we have currently tabled. 
  • Sky says that he has a total fleet of 144 ships, but he's only contributing a hundred. I don't think it would be unreasonable for Genoa and the rest of the coalition to create a fleet comparable to that of the Ottomans, if they chose to do so. 

"This is not your grave but you are welcome in it." 23:42, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

For the next round, please be sure to add the 4.5 million Milanese population, and our contributions o10k men and 50 ships. Pink Floyd Hammer Flag - The Wall I'd rather be a hammer than a nail... 03:44, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Also add the 40k men and 30 ships from Aragon please. — T I M (TSWAHMGWContribs) 05:22, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

My population is 650k not 40k. Also my army stands at 5k not 500. I would like this to be fix to the exact numbers. - Scarlet Outlaw

Whoever finishes this algo, please remember that the rules/algo page has a set limit to the number of troops each nation can commit to a Crusade/Holy War -Nate

How is it that the Ottomans got cut on their navy when they are naval concentration? If you aren't giving them credit for navy then they should have gotten more army. You can't have it both ways. -Nate

Burgundian Invasion of Pomerania

  • 1421
    • Pre-War Stage
      • Burgundy (Attacking)
        • Result: 13.6
          • Population: 9.6
          • War Exhaustion: -2
          • Casus Belli: 3
          • Government: 3
      • Pomerania (Defending)
        • Result: 7.6
          • Population: 1.6 (Hussite population should count too)
          • War Exhaustion: -4
          • Casus Belli: Defending historical lands: +5 Existential threat +2
          • Government: 3
    • Battle Stage
      • Battle of Burg Stargard
        • Burgundy (Attacking)
          • Result: 10.5
            • Army/Navy Size: 9
            • Location: 3.5
            • Great General: 0
            • Blunder: -2
            • Attrition: 0
        • Pomerania (Defending)
          • Result: 1.3
            • Army/Navy Size: 1.8 (Hussite Army should count too)
            • Location: 3.5
            • Great General: 0
            • Blunder: -4
            • Attrition: 0
        • Outcome: 
      • Naval Battle of Stettin
        • Burgundy
          • Result: 23.1 (+10% Naval Concentration: 25.41)
            • Navy Size: 120 ships = 3.6
            • Location: 4.5
            • Great Admiral: 20 (John de Luxembourg)
            • Blunder: -2
            • Attrition: -3
        • Pomerania:
          • Result: 0.52 (+10% Naval Concentration: 0.572)
            • Navy size: 34 ships = 1.02
            • Location: 4.5
            • Great Admiral:
            • Blunder: -5
            • Attrition: 0
        • Outcome:
  • Final Stage:
    • Pomerania
      • Cities Occupied: 0
      • Result:
      • Casualties: total (?)
    • Burgundy
      • Cities Occupied: Burg Stagard
      • Result:
      • Casualties:
    • Final result: Unconditional Pomeranian Surrender

Discussion

Promotion of John de Luxembourg to great admiral approved by MPmod. I am that guy (talk) 00:17, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Blunder done by Natemod. I am that guy (talk) 00:22, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

I think Hussite rebels count too. Palaiologos-Dynasty-Eagle Ungern von Sternberg A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies Flag of the Northern Yuan 11:18, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Result declared by Skyboimod. I am that guy (talk) 16:07, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Pomeranian/Hussite conquest of Brandenburg

  • 1421
    • Pre-War Stage
      • Pomerania/Hussites (Attacking)
        • Result: 13.6
          • Population: ??? (Hussite + Pomeranian pop)
          • War Exhaustion: ???
          • Casus Belli: 3
          • Government: 3
      • Brandenburg (Defending)
        • Result: 7.6
          • Population: 1.6
          • War Exhaustion: ???
          • Casus Belli: Defending historical lands: +5 Existential threat +2
          • Government: 3
    • Battle Stage
      • Battle of ???
        • Pomerania/Hussites (Attacking)
          • Result: 10.5
            • Army/Navy Size: ???
            • Location: 3.5
            • Great General: 0
            • Blunder: IDK MODS
            • Attrition: 0
        • Brandenburg (Defending)
          • Result: 1.3
            • Army/Navy Size: ???
            • Location: 3.5
            • Great General: 0
            • Blunder: IDK MODS
            • Attrition: 0
        • Outcome: 
  • Final Stage:
    • Brandenburg
      • Cities Occupied: 0
      • Result:
      • Casualties: total
    • Pomerania/Hussites
      • Cities Occupied: ???
      • Result:
      • Casualties:
    • Final result:

Discussion

my army score would not be that low and the location would be higher for me would it not. With Blood and Iron (talk) 12:37, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Invasion of Epirus

  • 1421
    • Pre-War Stage
      • Duchy of Naxos (Attacking)
        • Result: 8.06
          • Population: +0.06
          • War Exhaustion: +0
          • Casus Belli: +5
          • Government: +3
      • Epirus (Defending)
        • Result: 6.4
          • Population: +0.4
          • War Exhaustion: +0
          • Casus Belli: +3 (Existential threat to land not historically connected to defenders)
          • Government: +3
    • Battle Stage
      • Battle of Arta
        • Duchy of Naxos (Attacking)
          • Result: 0.62
            • Army/Navy Size: +0.12 (400)
            • Location: +3.5
            • Great General: +0
            • Blunder: -3
            • Attrition: +0
        • Epirus (Defending)
          • Result: 1.09
            • Army/Navy Size: +0.09 (300)
            • Location: +4
            • Great General: +0
            • Blunder: -3
            • Attrition: +0
        • Outcome:
          • Duchy of Naxos
            • Result: 8.68
          • Epirus
            • Result: 7.49
          • Outcome: Naxos wins with 116%. The Epirote forces retreat and Naxos captures Arta, along with the surrounding land (present day Arta Region, Aktio-Vonitsa Region, and the Amfilochia Region). Naxos loses 50 men and Epirus loses 75 men.
      • Battle of Agrinio
        • Duchy of Naxos (Attacking)
          • Result:
            • Army/Navy Size: +.15 (500)
            • Location: +3.5
            • Great General: +0
            • Blunder:
            • Attrition: +0
        • Epirus (Defending)
          • Result:
            • Army/Navy Size: +.07 (225)
            • Location: +3.5
            • Great General: +0
            • Blunder:
            • Attrition: +0
  • Final Stage:
    • Duchy of Naxos
      • Result: 
    • Epirus
      • Result: 
    • Overall Result: 

Discussion 

NathanialPrice (talk) 01:42, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Can a Mod please add the blunder to the algorithm?

Done. 

"This is not your grave but you are welcome in it." 23:33, August 12, 2016 (UTC)

Wait, wouldn't the Ottomans become involved in this since Epirus is an Ottoman vassal? — T I M (TSWAHMGWContribs) 23:39, August 12, 2016 (UTC)

Bahmanid Conquest of Khandesh [1421]

Bahmanid Sultanate vs. Khandesh Sultanate

  • Pre-War Stage
    • Bahmanids
      • Result: +37
        • Population: +34 [Bahmanid Population ~16 million]
        • War Exhaustion: -1
        • Casus Belli: +3 [Attacking Historical Enemy]
        • Government: +3 [Itqa']
    • Khandesh
      • Result: +11
        • Population: +3 [Khandesh Population ~1.5 million]
        • War Exhaustion: -0
        • Casus Belli: +5 [Existential against Historical Enemy]
        • Government: +3 [Itqa']
  • Battle Stage
    • Battle of Asirgarh
      • Bahmanids (Attacking)
        • Result: +72.5
          • Army/Navy Size: +72 [Bahmanid Army= 170,000 men and 700 elephants]
          • Location: +4.5 [Center of Government]
          • Great General: N/A
          • Blunder: -4
          • Attrition: -0
      • Khandesh (Defending)
        • Result: +26.38
          • Army/Navy Size: +24.38 [Khandesh Army= 11,250 men and 700 elephants]
          • Location: +6 [Center of Government]
          • Great General: N/A
          • Blunder: -4
          • Attrition: -0
  • Casualties: (difference of 45.62)
    • Bahmanids: 11,220 men and 46 elephants
    • Khandesh: 2250 men and 140 elephants
  • Final Score:
    • Khandesh loses w/score of -34.62. Over 200% score difference.
      • Overall Result: Khandesh is conquered by the Bahmanids.

Discussion

Castilian Reconquest of Morocco [1422]

  • Pre War Stage
    • Castile:17.6
      • Population:8.6
      • War Exhaust:0
      • CB:+3
      • Government:+5
    • Berber Morocco: 13.8
      • Population:3.8
      • War Exhaust:0
      • Cb:+3+2
      • Government:+5
  • Castile Marches on Fez
    • Castile: 16.5
      • Numbers: 45k men=12
      • Location:+8 (Assault on City)
      • Attrition: -6
      • Blunder:5
    • Morocco:10
      • Numbers:3
      • Location:+12
      • Blunder:5
  • Final Stage
    • Castile
      • 17.6+8.7=26.3
    • Morocco
      • 13.8-6.5=7.3-15 (Capital Occupied)=-7.7+8.7=1
  • Result
    • Castile takes Fez and Morocco collapses.

Are you sure you won't suffer attrition? The city of Fez is surrounded by the Atlas Mountains so I am not sure how you managed to skip over the Mountains. Your algo justifies it by saying "Battle takes place in city" which is quite amusing because for the battle to take place within the city, it would mean your army crossed over the mountains and toppled the city gates to enter the city... neither of which happened. So, as far as I see it, you should suffer -6 in Attrition             Reichsadler der Deutsches Reich (1933–1945)   The night is dark and full of terrors. 

I justify it withthis map and this map, both of which place the city of Fez North of the Atlas Mountains, not surrounded by them. I will post further reference maps at the end of this post. The Wikipedia article for Fez states that it is located in the Atlas Range, however, referencing several maps place Fez and the route my forces would march outside of the Atlas Mountains. Now if I was marching from the South or East, I would have to cross them, but not from the Northwest. I can post more reference maps if needed. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL

I suppose you are a bit right. However, whilst it isn't completely surrounded by the Atlas Range, the ciy is not on flat lands either. The following two maps prove that the city is in fact present on a high-altitude terrain.

However, to be more close to the truth and how the scenario truly is, I decided to check a satellite image of the area. The result is the following which clearly depicts the terrain North/North West of the city being mountainous.

            Reichsadler der Deutsches Reich (1933–1945)   The night is dark and full of terrors. 

Mamma mia, che buona algo! Anyways, blunder -5 and -5 and no attrition. It's a hills/rough terrain at most then, y'see, there's a big difference between those two, at least that's what I've learned from my mountaineering years.

SkyGreen24 18:56, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Bahmanid-Malwa War [1422]

Bahmanid Sultanate vs. Malwa Sultanate

  • Pre-War Stage
    • Bahmanids
      • Result: +62
        • Population: +60 [Bahmanid Population ~30 million*]
        • War Exhaustion: -2
        • Casus Belli: +1 [No Reason]
        • Government: +3 [Itqa']
    • Malwa
      • Result: +14
        • Population: +5 [Malwa Population ~2.5 million]
        • War Exhaustion: -0
        • Casus Belli: +6 [Existential Defending the crown]
        • Government: +3 [Itqa']
  • Battle Stage
    • Battle of Shadiabad
      • Bahmanids (Attacking)
        • Result: +76.5
          • Army/Navy Size: +79.1 [Bahmanid Army= 170,000 men and 700 elephants +10% concentration]
          • Location: +4.5 [Center of Government]
          • Great General: N/A
          • Blunder: -1
          • Attrition: -0
      • Malwa (Defending)
        • Result: +19.6
          • Army/Navy Size: +14.6 [Malwa Army= 18,750 men and 300 elephants]
          • Location: +6 [Center of Government]
          • Great General: N/A
          • Blunder: -1
          • Attrition: -0
  • Casualties: (difference of 59.5)
    • Bahmanids: 11,220 men, and 46 elephants
    • Malwa: 12,038 men and 20 elephants
  • Final Score:
    • Malwa loses w/score of -44.5. Over 200% score difference.
      • Overall Result: Malwa is conquered by the Bahmanids.

Discussion

Sino-Japanese War of Korean subjugation [1423] (This has issues)

Bahmanid Sultanate vs. Malwa Sultanate

  • Pre-War Stage
    • Japan/China
      • Result: + 28
        • Population: +21 (Japan) +228 (China)
        • War Exhaustion: -0
        • Casus Belli: +1 (I don't see the connection)
        • Government: +6 [Celestial empire]
    • Korea
      • Result: +23.4
        • Population: +13.4 [Korea Population ~6.7 million]
        • War Exhaustion: -0
        • Casus Belli: +4 [Existential Defending the crown]
        • Government: +6 [Celestial Empire] -?not sure how this works. (Nate)?
  • Battle Stage
    • Battle of the Korean Coast
      • Japan (Attacking)
        • Result:  =  5.1
          • Army/Navy Size: (230) = 6.6
          • Location: +4.5 [Center of Government]
          • Great General: N/A
          • Blunder: -2
          • Attrition: -3
      • Korea(Defending)
        • Result: 16
          • Navy: 500 ships =  15
          • Location: +6 [Center of Government]
          • Great General: N/A
          • Blunder: -5
          • Attrition: -0
  • Casualties:
    • Japan
    • Korea:
  • Final Score:
    • Korea: 23.4
    • Japan: 17.1
      • Overall Result: 136.84% in favour of the Korean navy
    • Needs mods to check this but the naval should all be good since Nate is being such a stickler. I stomped Korea off the sea. Feudy McPlagueface (talk)
    • KIM JONG-SEO, I CHOOSE YOU!

Discussion

  • Need some help since I've never done this algo before Feud Sig

This algo has certain issues:

  • China never said it was invading. It merely allowed Japan to invade
  • China has no intention to annex korea or allow it to be annexed, so it is not existential
  • Invading from an Island obviously needs a naval algo, which is exactly why Japan couldn't invade Korea otl until the 20th century
  • Considering Japan and Korea are both naval concentrations, why is there an army algo in the first place? Did your navies transmute into soldiers?
  • Korea's maximum military is 134,000 by its population (again, how can Korea or Japan use so many land troops with a naval concentration?)
  • I'm leaving Korea as Celestial Empire only because I don't know enough about East Asia to say otherwise.

Oh, I didn't mean to push that button!Oh, well leave a message I guess 02:09, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

I actually maintain a port city right next to Korea ... so yeah, I don't need a naval algo to transport troops to my own port city right next to Korea. If that's an issue than China allowed me to invade and i went through Chinese Territory. As for my concentration its not about number of troops its about their efficiency. I can field around 200,000 or so. As for navies. As for Korea being annexed, its nominally falling under a complicated Sino-Japanese agreement regarding Korea which will be discussed at length in a treaty between China and Japan. Also when does it say in the concentrations i cant have an Army as well as a Navy. The Focus is to just give precedence for one over the other and give a bonus for doing that focus. Historically the French did have a fleet just not a very good one. While it would be able to compete in its heyday with the Portuguese or Spanish Fleets, the British was out of the question cause the British naval focus made their island impregnable. This also however did not discount the fact the British spent well beyond their means on multiple occasions to fight and wipe out the french the most notable being the Napoleonic wars where they continued on funding their allies and fielding relatively large armies to contend with the French. As for the fact of Korea not being invaded until the 20th century that's untrue. Invasions have happened both ways, the 1200's for an invasion into Japan by the mongols, and then the 15th century with a large Japanese invasion force which persisted and was beaten back by Koreans with Chinese support.

Either way ive won and me and China have a pre-existing agreement concerning Koreas jurisdiction post war Feudy McPlagueface (talk)

Navy concentration means you can't have as much army as you would be able to given your population. Your population can support 200,000 troops, if you had a small navy, but you declared your concentration on navy instead. If you already have a port city in Korea you have already defeated the purpose of being in this war, as China is only giving you access to the peninsula. All the invasions between Korea and Japan before the 20th century failed because the militaries were defeated at sea. Neither the Mongols nor Japanese ever landed on the coast. England would need a naval algo to invade France, despite being close in the channel, and Korea and Japan are much farther away than them. So no, this isn't official until you have the naval algo. That's my final word, so you will need the consensus of other mods if you disagree. Oh, I didn't mean to push that button!Oh, well leave a message I guess 03:52, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah it says that nowhere in the rules. It just says a 10% bonus is applied to the area in which you have a concentration in. Nowhere does it force me to reduce my army size to compensate which in reality doesn't happen in an era like this. That might starting to be true in the 1600's and 1700's when a more professional and expensive standing army was the case but i think the lack of applied bonus works enough here.

Besides that i think it goes without saying I would crush Koreas navy since guess what i have navy focus to their Army focus and decidedly beat them on the land as it is. Also you are wrong once again in the success of invasions by sea. The Mongol invasion did in fact touch down at one point (there were multiple invasions) and the Japanese fought them on the coast. And in the case of Japans invasion of korea in the 1500's 200,000 troops arrived with little to no naval molestation to begin with. Besides i have a giant natural port that i own on the coast that i can land troops that is literally within spitting distance of the Border. Also im pretty sure if you are going to cut my army size A FULL 50,000 is more than plenty to be cutting. Feudy McPlagueface (talk)

Bozi's normal army of 100,000 was cut down to 60,000 due to his navy concentration. Safe to be consistent. Also, while both of those invasions did have some landings the vast cause of their defeat was at sea (the Mongol forces were wiped out in a storm and the Japanese were defeated by the admiral Yi Sun-Sin) Oh, I didn't mean to push that button!Oh, well leave a message I guess 04:24, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

Please, Feud, lengthening an argument does not affect whether or not you're wrong. I can see already several issues with your algorithm. First it assumes that China allows an invasion of Korea. Firstly, the treaty in which Korea is subjugated as a protectorate specifically states that China is obliged to protect it. If China would want Korea to stay put, it would have to exercise its obligations, which is opposite of your implausible little collaboration (which is really fishy). Second, you stated there's no Great General for Korea. There is. Kim Jong-seo, who co-led an attack against the Jurchens that persisted until the Songhua River, many miles north of the peninsula. Second, there's King Sejong the Great (he had a honorific at the end of his name for a reason), who also co-led the attack against the Jurchens and managed to easily repel wokou pirates and invade Tsushima in 1419 in the Ōei War. Third, despite your naval focus, Korea has a probably stronger (but probably smaller) navy. Korea at the earlier models of panokseon (or turtleships) at this time, which were equipped with gunpowder weapons and had spikes to discourage pirates from setting foot on the ship. Japan meanwhile, has a navy mostly composed of merchant vessels. Fourth, Korea has a way higher population density, especially in the areas you are trying to invade, and thus, resistance is thick. Korea also has gunpowder and the ability to manufacture gunpowder weapons (it has had these since the Goryeo dynasty) whilst Japan has none. I doubt China would give you the secret of gunpowder making. Fifth, why would Korea be a threat to Chinese interests (as stated by his turn). Korea has openly admitted Chinese "superiority" and wish to become a tributary state once again. Meanwhile, Japan treats itself as an equal, pays no tribute, and even subjugated an important Chinese trading partner (the Kingdom of Tondo) as a tributary state. If anything, Japan would be targeted by China. That is all. † ⌒⌒⌒\(;ᄋ;\)三(ノ>ᄉ<)ノ ~ ("코사랑 캐타, 撒但!")

I did some stuff after reading the walls of text SkyGreen24 12:26, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

How is my navy smaller when i have a naval concentration and a higher population and merchant marine base. This algo makes absolutely no sense from the naval perspective. Im requesting a Mod other than Nate since there is some fuckery about. 

Eh, I agree, Korea sent 227 ships against (at least) 300 ships (number of destroyed ships) in the Ōei War. Assuming the ratio will be the same, Korea will send 174 ships. I still think Korea has around 400–500 ships as a whole. -Candies

Also Candies, for future reference, the MODS decide if you get a great General not you. Period end of story If you didnt not request one or had it granted, then you don't have one. Feudy McPlagueface (talk)

Sejong the Great should count as great general, not admiral -Nate

Yi Jong-mu is a general, yet he's the one who led the Ōei War (successfully won the Japanese), so I think he can be counted as a Great Admiral.

Japan's naval forces were easily defeated by Yi Sun-Sin, thanks to skill and the panokseon (more famously known as the turtle-ship), which only Japanese naval vessels had an ironclad roof, numerous cannons, and other features that deterred pirates from setting foot or gave them an advantage in confrontations. Korea never lost control of the sea. Japan only got far because of Portuguese weaponry and tough training, whereas Korea was ill-prepared and faced political strife at the time. In this situation, China is obliged to protect Korea. Korea is not under strife, and is well-prepared. –Candies

Khmer-Champa war (1423)

  • Pre-War Stage
    • Khmer
      • Population: +7
      • War Exhaustion: N/A
      • Casus Belli: +4
      • Government: +5
      • Total: +16
    • Champa
      • Population: +2
      • War Exhaustion: N/A
      • Casus Belli: +6
      • Government: +5
      • Total: +13
  • Battle Stage
    • Khmer
      • Troops: +13.8 (40,000 troops, 60 ships)
      • Location: +4
      • Great General: N/A
      • Blunder: Mod Please
      • Attrition: 0
      • Total: +17.8
    • Champa
      • Troops: +6.6 (10,000 troops, 21 ships)
      • Location: +1
      • Great General: N/A
      • Blunder: Mod please
      • Total: +7.6
  • Final Stage
    • Khmer
      • +33.8
    • Champa-10.2
      • +10.4 (20.6-10.2)
    • Result: Khmer wins, takes Champa in one year.

Disscussion

Mogadishu-Mtwara War

  • 1427
    • Pre-War Stage
      • Mogadishu
        • Result: 98.94
          • Population: +91.94[Mogadishu population ~ 9.7 million Bahmanis -45 million]
          • War Exhaustion: 0
          • Casus Belli: Attacking historic enemy (Swahili City States) +3
          • Government: Oligarchy/Council +4
      • Mtwara
        • Result: 9.2
          • Population: 0.2 (100,000)
          • War Exhaustion: 0
          • Casus Belli: Existential Historic enemy +5
          • Government: Oligarchy/Council +4
    • Battle Stage
      • Battle of Mtwara
        • Mogadishu and Bahmanids
          • Result: 11.91
            • Army Size: 29,000 (20,000 Mogadishu soldiers, 9000 Bahmani Soldiers = 8.7
            • Navy Size: 145 Ships (120 Mogadishu, 25 Bahmanis Ships) = 3.6*1.1 (Naval Focus) + 0.75 = 4.71
            • Location: Near seat of government, along sea +4.5
            • Great General: 0
            • Blunder: -2
            • Attrition:  Naval -3
        • Mtwara
          • Result: 2.46
            • Army Size: 2000 Soldiers = 0.6
            • Navy Size: 12 Ships = 0.36
            • Location: Defending near seat of government +4.5
            • Great General:
            • Blunder: -3
            • Attrition:
  • Final Stage:
    • Mogadishu and Bahmanids
    • Mtwara
      • Complete destruction of army, Capital captured
    • Overall Result: 2000 % in favor of Mogadishu Bahmanids alliance, Mtwara conquered by Mogadishu

Kuzir Civil War (1428) [Needs to be redone]

  • 1428
    • Pre-War Stage
      • Songhai & Rebels (Attacking)
        • Result: +20
          • Population: +10 (five million)
          • War Exhaustion: 0
          • Casus Belli: +6
          • Government: +4
      • Loyalists (Defending)
        • Result: +38
          • Population: +25 (12,456,250)
          • War Exhaustion: 0
          • Casus Belli: +6
          • Government: +7
    • Battle Stage
      • Kuzir Civil War
        • Songhai & Rebels (Attacking)
          • Result: +29
            • Army/Navy Size: +30 (100,000 troops)
            • Location: +5
            • Great General: 0
            • Blunder: -2
            • Attrition: -4 (Jungle)
        • Loyalists (Defending)
          • Result: +155.5
            • Army/Navy Size: +108.5 (300,000 troops/401 ships/+10% army concentration: +6.5)
            • Location: +7
            • Great General: +45 (Mohammad Benkan)
            • Blunder: -5
            • Attrition: 0
  • Final Stage:
    • Songhai & Rebels
      • Cities Occupied: 0
      • Casualties: 90,000 troops dead
      • Result: 49
    • Loyalists
      • Cities Occupied: 0
      • Casualties: 30,000 troops dead
      • Result: 193.5
    • Overall Result: 394.89% in favor of the loyalists. Songhai and rebels defeated, and the integrity of the Kuzir Empire maintained.

Discussion

Viva, just to be more clear, the civil war in the core of Benin is a separate party from the Songhai rebellion. You can't defeat them both in one battle. Also, with the Songhai independence they take much of the outer vassals/territories outside of the core of Benin, giving them roughly equal or slightly less population than Benin. But that won't matter until the next turn when you send an algo against Songhai itself. -Nate

That bit with Songhai is ASB. How did a nation that was largely dominated by a single group manage to take over an entire region that never belonged to them to begin with? To declare independence from Benin would require the old nobles to Songhai to still have support in the region, which they don't. When the Jews rebelled against the Romans, they didn't take all the land from Anatolia to Egypt. They only took the land they had a presence in; Judea. Songhai doesn't control that much land since many of the inhabitants are from Benin's core. And why would lands conquered by Songhai want to rebel and join their conquerors, when life under Benin was safer and freer? None of this is adding up. Flag of the Xanian Empire Flag of Xyon Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:46, August 15, 2016 (UTC)

Chimu Alliance-Quzco War (1428)

  • Year
    • Pre-War Stage
      • Chimu Alliance
        • Result: 17
          • Population: 4.5 million (9)
          • War Exhaustion:
          • Casus Belli: 3
          • Government:5
      • Quzco 11.2
        • Result:
          • Population: 600,000 (1.2)
          • War Exhaustion:
          • Casus Belli: 2+3
          • Government: 5
    • Battle Stage
      • Battle of Quzco
        • Chimu Alliance
          • Result: 21
            • Army/Navy Size: 75,000 =22.5
            • Location: 4.5
            • Great General:
            • Blunder:
            • Attrition: -6
        • Quzco
          • Result: 15.6
            • Army/Navy Size: 12,000 = 3.6
            • Location: 12
            • Great General:
            • Blunder:
            • Attrition:
  • Final Stage:
    • Chimu Alliance
      • Cities Occupied:
      • Result: 16
    • Quzco
      • Cities Occupied:
      • Result: 11.2-5.4= 5.7
    • Overall Result: Chimu and friends win 275%, completely annexing Cuzco

Discussion

MODS PLEASE CHECK THIS

Made it a bit harder on Chimu by making Cuzco better fortified, but the result is a clear Chimu victory -Nate

Tondo Conquest of Madja-as (OTL Panay)

  • 1428
    • Pre-War Stage
      • Kingdom of Tondo, Huangdom of Ma-I, Huangdom of Pangasinan
        • Result: 21
          • Population: 17 (8.5 million combined)
          • War Exhaustion: -0
          • Casus Belli: 1 (No connection)
          • Government: +3 (Feudal Monarchy)


  • Madja-as
  • Result: 12.6
    • Population: 1.6 (800,000)
    • War Exhaustion: -0
    • Casus Bell: +7 (Existential, Defending historic lands)
    • Government: +4 (Oligarchy/Council)


  • Battle Stage
  • Battle of the Sibuyan Sea


  • Tondo, Ma-I, Pangasinan
    • Result: 4.82 (tentative)
      • Army/Navy Size: 4.32 (120 ships + 10% naval concentration)
      • Location: 3.5 (Near a city)
      • Great General/Admiral: (none)
      • Attrition: Along enemy coast (-3)
      • Blunder: 
  • Madja-as
  • Result: 4.1 (tentative)
    Army/Navy Size: 0.6 (20 ships)
    Location: 3.5 (Near a city)
    Great General/Admiral: (none)
    Blunder: 


  • Casualties
    • Tondo and Vassals:
    • Madja-as:
  • Final Score:
    • Tondo: 21
    • Madja-as: 11.88

=176% in favor of Tondo Navy. Path for naval invasion cleared

Gujarat War [1428]

Bahmanids vs. Gujarat

  • Pre-War Stage
    • Bahmanids
      • Result: +68
        • Population: +64 [Bahmanid Population ~32 million]
        • War Exhaustion: -1
        • Casus Belli: +2 [Trade War]
        • Government: +3 [Itqa']
    • Gujarat
      • Result: +11
        • Population: +4 [Gujarat Population ~2 million]
        • War Exhaustion: -0
        • Casus Belli: +4 [Existential in Trade War]
        • Government: +3 [Itqa']
  • Battle Stage
    • Siege of Diu
      • Bahmanids (Attacking)
        • Result: +89.8
          • Army/Navy Size: +82.8 [Bahmanid Army = 180,000 men, 900 elephants and sixty ships]
          • Location: +8 [Center of Government]
          • Great General: N/A
          • Blunder: -1
          • Attrition: -0
      • Gujarat (Defending)
        • Result: +39.25
          • Army/Navy Size: +32.25 [Gujarat Army = 15,500 men, 800 elephants and 120 ships]
          • Location: +12 [Center of Government]
          • Great General: N/A
          • Blunder: -5
          • Attrition: -0
  • Casualties: (difference of 50.55)
    • Bahmanids: 18,000 men, 90 elephants and six ships
    • Gujarat: 5150 men, 240 elephants and 40 ships
  • Final Score:
    • Gujarat loses w/score of -39.55. Over 200% score difference.
      • Overall Result: Gujarat is conquered by the Bahmanids.

Discussion

Reconquest of Songhai (1429)

  • 1429
    • Pre-War Stage
      • Kuzir Empire (Attacking)
        • Result: +31
          • Population: +26 (13 million)
          • War Exhaustion: -6 (major war)
          • Casus Belli: +4
          • Government: +7
      • Songhai (Defending)
        • Result: +16
          • Population: +6 (three million)
          • War Exhaustion: 0
          • Casus Belli: +7
          • Government: +3 (iqta, I'm guessing)
    • Battle Stage
      • Reconquest of Songhai
        • Kuzir Empire (Attacking)
          • Result: +59.9
            • Army/Navy Size: +59.4 (military = pop * 0.02 *1.1 *0.75 (can't send max military) = 198,000)
            • Location: +4.5
            • Great General: +45 (Mohammad Benkan) lacking source
            • Blunder: -4
            • Attrition: 0
        • Songhai (Defending)
          • Result: +75.73
            • Army/Navy Size: +26.73 (89,000 troops)
            • Location: +6
            • Great General: +45 (Sonni Ali)
            • Blunder: -2
            • Attrition: 0
  • Final Stage:
    • Loyalists
      • Cities Occupied: 0
      • Casualties: completely wiped out
      • Result: 31 - 15.8375 = 15.1625
    • Songhai
      • Cities Occupied: 0
      • Casualties: 45,000 troops dead
      • Result: 16
    • Overall Result: 5215.84% in favor of the Kuzir Empire. Songhai reconquered. nope. 136% for Songhai. Benin is completely pushed out, but Songhai is unable to take any more territory from Benin. 

Discussion

Algo completely finished -Nate

  1. Why was the population changed? Songhai in OTL only have about three million people, and my population was changed form 13,456,250 to just 12 million.
  2. Where is my army concentration bonus? It's nowhere in this algo.
  3. Where did the major war status come from? Even with the altered population, Songhai is not 45% of Benin's population.
  4. Where did the -6 war fatigue come from? I didn't fight six years in a minor war, nor three years in a major war.
  5. Why is Sonni Ali, an OTL individual a great general for a nation when he won't be born for another 40 years?
  6. Why is my great general crossed out? Josh stated that a captured great general could be persuaded to fight for you, which I did a decade ago.

The algo has been drastically altered from what the actual statistics should be. Where is this extra information coming from? Flag of the Xanian Empire Flag of Xyon Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:28, August 16, 2016 (UTC)

I have changed the population back. I discussed this with Viva for about an hour and the conculsion I got was that population was mishandled.

Tondo-Madyas War (1429)

  • 1429
    • Pre-War Stage
      • Kingdom of Tondo, Huangdom of Ma-I, Huangdom of Pangasinan
  • Result: 20
  • Population: 17 (8.5 million combined)
  • War Exhaustion: -1
  • Casus Belli: 1 (No connection)
  • Government: +3 (Feudal Monarchy)


  • Madja-as
  • Result: 11.6
  • Population: 1.6 (800,000)
  • War Exhaustion: -1
  • Casus Bell: +7 (Existential, Defending historic lands)
  • Government: +4 (Oligarchy/Council)


  • Battle Stage
  • Naval Landings at Panay
  • Tondo, Ma-I, Pangasinan
  • Result: 2.6 (tentative)
  • Army/Navy Size: 3.6 (12,000 soldiers, 6% attrition loss)
  • Location: 3 (Coastal naval superiority)
  • Great General/Admiral: (none)
  • Attrition: -4 (Jungle)
  • Blunder:
  • Madja-as
  • Result: 1.6 (tentative)
  • Army/Navy Size: .6 (2000 soldiers)
  • Location: 1 (Defending the coast)
  • Great General/Admiral: (none)
  • Blunder: 
  • Casualties
    • Tondo and Vassals:
    • Madja-as:
  • Final Score:
    • Tondo: 20
    • Madja-as: 10.6

189% in favor of Tondo. Naval landings secured and Madja-as annexation.

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